From: Peter Metcalfe (P.Metcalfe@student.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Mon 09 Jun 1997 - 11:23:24 EEST
>>Just because they are Hsunchen does not mean they are limited
>>to Lion spirits. In addition to Rathor, the Rathori worship
>>Agikoros the Fire God, Silent Stalker the Hunter, Enimipol the
>>Beast Mother, Dog Brother, Thanz the acorn spirit, Burrowing
>>Toad Mother and Bluben. I and many Rathori would be very
>>suprised to hear them dismissed as 'measly beast spirits'.
>They are exactly what I meant. Thanks for digging up the names of these
>obscure spirit cult entities, and give me just one more powerful deity the
>Rathori worship. Even Frona (a one-spell-wonder grain-and-land goddess)
Who do you think the Fire God *is*? Lodril under another name
perhaps? He is also contacted by the Trolls using Shamanistic
rites. The Beast Mother is undoubtedly an aspect of the Earth
Mother (the later being obscure to the Rathori because they
don't practice much agriculture). The Rathori Shamans can even
contact Earthmaker who made the World, is he a 'measly beast
spirit' or a 'real god'?
>>Joerg is also apparently ignorant that Shamanistic Cultures can
>>achieve a high degree of urban sophistication to wit the Maya
>>(cf "Forest of Kings" by Linda Schele).
>Not quite ignorant. Add the Korean shamanism. But this isn't anywhere
>near the beast totem shamanism you'd expect from "hsunchen".
Why are you placing totally spurious limitations on what the
Hsunchen Shamans can or cannot do? This is on par with
AD&D's priests should not be allowed to use edged weapons.
Look at the Ituvani of the Dorastan Telmori. Quite sophisticated
magicians yet they are still Hsunchen.
>The Pendali sorcerers were likely more similar to the Orathorn sorcerers
>(which I doubt ever were part of the Kingdom of Logic) than Zzabur's or the
Oh dear, the definitions game again. Well if we are moving away
from the Sorcery of the West so that the Pendali sorcerers can
be said to be sorcerers then I must point out that the Ituvanu
of the Telmori can also be called sorcerers yet they mesh quite
well with the Hsunchen society of the Telmori.
And I fail to see how the Basmoli either learn their sorcery
from or evolve a sorcery like the Orathorni unless they had
close contact or they had similar backgrounds (either are
>>>Some of them lived in cities, others had agriculture, and some had lion
>>If Joerg believes that I disagree with any of this then he hasn't
>>been following the debate very well. What I disagreed on was
>>whether the Pendali had sorcerers and/or iron armour.
>If a culture has agriculture, it ceases to be Hsunchen.
The God Learners knew full well that the Basmoli lived in
cities and practiced agriculture, it was written in their
history books. Yet they still classified them as Hsunchen
and saw no contradiction in doing so. Thus I think the
actual definition of what it takes to be considered a Hsunchen
is a lot more fluid than beast worshipping people who
practice only hunting and gathering.
>Look at the Rathori,
>they even have houses, but they practice neither agriculture nor
>horticulture, out of choice.
1) I suggested a way around this, namely Basmoli Lion Warriors
lording it over a sedentary population.
2) The Rathori live in the middle of a forest where it is very
difficult to practice large scale pastoralism or agriculture.
I think that they do practice some horticulture as the Rathori
uncle expresses contempt for cutting grandmother's skin with a
plow and enslavement of beasts.
3) Likewise the Praxian Basmoli do not practice agriculture or
pastoralism because they live in a desert and find it very
hard to acquire herds. The Telmori have the habit of turning
into wild beasts every seven days which sets their material
culture back quite a bit. We have no idea what the Shan Shan
Hsunchen may or may not do but pastoralism is practiced by
many of them.
>Now, either the Malkioni adopted shamanistic practises to survive, or the
>Pendali magics weren't that "primitive hsunchen". Your choice, Peter.
Where did I ever say that the Pendali magics were 'primitive
hsunchen', Joerg? I've denied that their magicians were
_sorcerers_ and despite your protestations about the
infallibility of the Book of Kings, I still affirm that
position. Could you at least respond to what people are
>Ok, I can understand that people might not recognize that the big
>glowing ball of light in the sky is actually Yelm:the sun. However,
>I can't reconcile [this with?] the basic myth of "Orlanth kills
>Yelm, so Glorantha is dark and the Trolls flee Hell because it's
>all bright and hot and stuff, but Orlanth frees Yelm from Hell, and
>now the sun is there half the day and in Normal Glorantha the other
That is a myth which is not believed by every gloranthan. The
Trolls say that Death (not Yelm) came to Wonderhome and drove
them out. Later Death was brought back by the hoomans because
they could not withstand the Uz in the darkness. The Malkioni
probably believe it was the evils of the Vadeli that caused the
Sun to go away and only Malkion brought set the universe right
with the I Fought We Won.
The basic plot is that the Sun disappeared for many years
some 1600 years ago and only now rises and sets. The names
of the Sun (Yelm, Somash, Ehilm) and the reasons why the sun
did so (ie he was killed, the World turned upside down) are
artifacts of the culture telling the story.
>Also, does anybody happen to have a (fairly) complete list of what would
>be the Esrolian Pantheon?
The Six Earths: Ernalda, Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Ty Kora Tek,
Maran Gor and Voria.
The Husbands of Ernalda: Orlanth, Magasta, Argan Argar, 'Yelmalio',
Flamal, Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, 'Yelm'.
The 'Yelmalio' of Esrolia is probably not the Sun Dome Yelmalio
but rather the Elf Yelmalio. The 'Yelm' is probably the local
sun god rather than the Dara Happan Cult. The cult will have
had many diverse influences from Dara Happa, the Orlanthi and
the God Learners.
There are other gods like Kethaa and Entruli. Nick had a
tale about them but I can't find it at the mo.
Me>> But the Masters
>> know the Truth is otherwise. When Emperor Yanoor committed
>> suicide to avoid capture by the New Dragons Ring, thousands
>> of blameless people who had followed his instructions all
>> their lives followed his example and did likewise. Yet you
>> can see them today as the Hungry Ghosts. How can you say
>> that this is the True Kralorelan Way?.
>They are hungry ghosts because Yanoor died prematurely.
>The transformation of his soul into a dragon soul wasn't
>complete, so he couldn't go to Vithela to bring the
>faithful dead with him to wherever. If the Kralorelan
>way didn't work, as you say, wouldn't there be hungry
>ghosts from the reigns of other emperors?
Because when the other Emperors turned into True Dragons,
they ate all the ghosts residing in the so-called Palace
of Excellent Reward to fuel the Dragon's passage into the
World Beyond. But since Yanoor's transformation was not
yet complete, he was unable to do so and thus the Hungry
Ghosts came to the Land of Splendor.
The New Dragons Ring could have returned the Ghosts to the
palace but it was found that the ghosts had been hungry
there while Yanoor still lived! They were allowed to roam
the land free and several orders were set up to ensure that
they could be fed until the time that they could be freed
from their inhuman bondage. Most of these humanitarian
orders were disbanded by the Mandarins when they came back
and the suffering of the Hungry Ghosts has increased.
>> Even the Mandarins knew the Truth. Instead following their
>> Emperor's example, they fled like craven rats to Bliss in
>Being closer to enlightenment than the common people
>who committed suicide, they knew the full extent of
>the horror of the emperor's premature death, so they
>fled to BiI in order to regroup and device a way to
>oust the usurpers and reinstate the true Kralorelan
>way. Which they also eventually succeeded in doing.
They avoided committing suicide because they knew that
without the protection of the Dragon Emperor, they would
be dragged by fanged demons to the Level Below Vermin
whereupon they will suffer eternal torment for the
enormity of their crimes.
But if they knew the full extent then why didn't they tell
the people? Why did they not say 'Do not hang yourselves
for it is of no use. Put away the knife for it is too late'?
The Truth, as the Masters can show, is that the Mandarins
*encouraged* the carnage so that the New Dragons could not find
and punish them. They also hoped with the release of the dead,
the New Dragons would have to flee Kralorela. Lastly but not
the least, they looted the houses of those who had followed
Yanoor's example. This plunder was used to bribe the Huan
To so they would aid the Mandarins in returning to the Land of
Splendor and curse us all.
- --Peter Metcalfe
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #484
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