From: Owen Jones (oj@maths.anu.edu.au)
Date: Wed 18 Jun 1997 - 02:59:14 EEST
Jean Durupt:
>IMG, gods have an independant existence of their worshipers, here is why.
>Glorantha is a world where spirits have an objective existence. No one deny
>the existence of ghosts, for example.
David Cake in response:
> Just one of the several good reasons why a hard core subjectivist
>position that actually doubts the gods independent existence doesn't really
>hold up, not that I think anyone really advocates it.
> But gods are not just big spirits - the connection to the primal
>power is something over and above its normal spiritual existence. Beings
>like Thunder Bird stand somewhere near heroes, except they were formerly
>spirits rather than formerly being normal mortals. Like heroes, they have
>some divine power, and some restrictions on their will. But like heroes,
>they are not so distant yet that they can't manifest and interact directly.
>Think of Thunder Bird as partway to godhood, but not there yet.
Let me throw my hat in the ring as a hard core subjectivist then. In my
(current!) view gods are a natural by-product of the creative juices of a
magically capable people. The birth of a god requires a spark of life
similar to that which fires up any sapient creature. However, without
worshippers, a god has nothing to tie it to the real world and give it
form. Similarly, I believe that spirits which are not regularly contacted
and reminded who they are will eventually forget and fade away. Of course,
some may take a long time to do this, especially if they were particularly
driven when alive. Similarly, a god will take quite some time to fade
away, even without any worshippers.
What makes this set up interesting is the feedback. Once you've got a god,
it's going to be playing it's part in reminding it's worshippers that it
exists. I imagine in Glorantha many gods being born as simple tribal
cultures formed. By the time history begins, i.e. the dawn for Dragon
Pass peoples, it has become almost impossible for new gods to be formed,
as the existing ones do quite well in explaining the world as seen through
their worshippers eyes. And the gods themselves reinforce this. The gods
are however subject to change, as the culture which supports them
develops and becomes more complex. On the other hand, the spirits of dead
heros can provide a ready made focus for new worship.
A question at this point. Do or did gods actually fight and die? I tend to
think that the death of a god is how one culture explains their defeat at
the hands of another. Again, once a culture has started to believe this,
it's going to be practically impossible for them to produce a
replacement. Much more likely is the adoption of a foreign god, or the
belief that their god can/will be reborn.
In the west they no longer, or possibly never did, need gods in the way
they do in central Genertela. I think their belief in a single god means
there has to be such an entity, but as it doesn't by definition interact
directly with anyone, this can't be verified.
The eastern (mystic?) viewpoint however, remains a mystery to me. Are we
due an eastern special of TotRM at some stage?
Cheers
Owen
Owen Jones
Centre for Maths and its Applications, School of Math. Sciences
Australian National University, ACT 0200
Ph +61 6 249 2897 (office) 249 4552 (direct) Fax +61 6 249 4675
Web page http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~oj/
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