From: Alex Ferguson (abf@interzone.ucc.ie)
Date: Sun 29 Jun 1997 - 04:30:51 EEST
Malcolm Cohen on my comment to the effect of:
> >[A Hero might never run out of WILL, just by generating more in his
> mundane life]
> By making it sufficiently slow to (re)generate WILL, this becomes a
> non-problem; even if said Hero is immortal, he can only alter the HP
> at a low rate.
Well, the proposed mechanic makes it no slower for a Hero to (re)generate
WILL than anyone else; it just avoids the "feedback loop" that'd make
things even worse. But Real Heroes don't seem to work like this; they
all pop off to the HeroPlane before all that long. (Possibly just
boredom, as Nils suggested; who knows.)
> > But I think that some of the things Will is used for (in our system
> > and theirs), are such that they _ought_ to be "improvable" by HQ.
> I agree - WILL could be split into two parts, the "free will" part and
> the "influence" part.
Well, so far, so good; but what I'm skeptical of is the benefit of
describing the "FWILL" part numerically. See numerous other postings
about doing this by geas, trait, passion, etc.
> OTOH, INFLUENCE would be say POW + skills mastered + initiations +
> gifts + rune spells. I see no need for INFLUENCE to go down (at
> least, not normally).
Hrm, well, yeah. This part of the equation I'm even vaguer about. My
current instinct is that we might as well bite the bullet and use POW as
the basic currency (as R. Melvin's system does), but it's further
complicated by "support and other factors" being generally on a
"different scale", and that one isn't going to simply "spend" all the
points at once, simply to "do the HQ". Rather, at each stage of the HQ,
there will be opponents, tests, Required Things to Do, each of which
will need or admit a different "power" or ability to be used to overcome
it. Each of these may need to be "paid for" in some way or another.
Then there's the (potentially) separate matter of the "tariff" on the
particular Quest Object.
A slightly different question is on what will any "tests" be based? For
this, the idea of expressing both personality traits, and powers (such
as Element and Power Runes, in the last GS/SP system we saw hints of) as
separate numeric values seems the way to go.
> Perhaps an example of what I mean: say there is a HQ for Humakt's
> magic sword of sharpness; this might have a basic cost of 1 FWILL.
> The possible outcomes for a successful HQ might be:
[escalating scale of breadth of effect, and required INFLUENCE]
Well, I'd say they also require progessively more "free will" too.
I'd call these all "depth" type distinctions, with a bit of "social
gain" on the side -- with the partial exception of the "Hero Cult"
one -- see below.
> Another way of slicing HQs is
[ P[ersonal] transformation vs. S[ocial](?) effect; and
(i) revelation/s********e vs. (ii) transformation/o*******e ]
Bad Malcolm! You used the Nasty O-word and S-word! Let's not merge
a useful discussion with what's become a mind-numbingly fruitless one,
please? Not what you intended, I'm sure, but this, and in particular
another posting, are perilously close for my tattered nerves...
I can see the logic of your taxonomy, though I don't know if it's
meaningful to talk about all four for each individual Quest (that is,
each Myth being enacted, or Path followed). Is there such a thing as
a Personal Revelation LBQ, to take an arbitrary example? Or are some
Quests inherently of one (or two or three) such types only?
Vadeli? ;-)
> my P/S (i)/(ii) distinctions above do seem to me to hold some sort of
> importance in Glorantha - though perhaps (i) vs (ii) is simply depth?
Partially that. I think the "P/S" thing doesn't _necessarily_ affect
the actual Quest itself -- it may simply be a case of doing exactly
the same in each case, up until the Drink the Elixir moment. Do you
guzzle it all down yourself, and get +100% Sword Attack, or bring it
back, and give your clan +10%? (To take the perennial Greg example.)
Unless I'm falsely assuming this, from omission of Staffordian statement
to the contray any time he's described this (that I know of).
I don't for a moment say all these distinctions aren't meaningful, as
they certainly are to Gloranthans. They wouldn't even describe them all
as HeroQuests, I suspect. But for game purposes, I see great benefits
in trying to treat them all with one "system", if we can feasibly get
away with it -- I don't want to suddenly have to "shift gears" if I
discover the current Quest isn't the "type" I originally thought it
was, and audit all preceeding events of the quest in the light of this.
My Generic Classification would be something like the following. I
think each of the following choices is generally available on _any_
quest. I also think each is really a continuum of options, not a
discrete and wholly different thing which we should wheel out a
different mechanic, unless we can avoid it. I'll wheel them out in
sequence, from the first "choice" the Quester has, to the last.
1. "Depth". This is largely determined ahead of time, but on occassion
you may end up going, or being "pulled" into a "bigger" quest than
your preparations would have indicated. At one extreme, we have
simply participating in a worship ceremony using this myth; at the
other, you _are_ the God, actually (re)doing the act.
2. Re-enact vs. extrapolate. You make this up as you go along,
basically. (Or don't, as it were.) If you end up more or less
where you originally wanted to go, then sure, what harm? At every
point you deviate from the script, you obviously risk all sorts of
nasty stuff going wrong, and making something genuinely "new"
happen may require an enormous amount of effort(*).
3. Personal vs. social gain. As I said, I suspect this choice is made
at the "climax" of the Quest. Of course, that may not be what you
told the folks back home...
4. Hero, vs. Quester. Are you worshipped after you're gone, mentioned
as a gross, powergaming hackmeister, or forgotten? Ultimately, it
comes down to the judgement of history, but you're most likely to
leave an actual hero cult behind you if you: quested to a significant
"depth"; made enough innovation to be worthwhile emulating as a
distinct path; and created significant social gain while you lived.
Having a proto-cult of "supporters" is likely also a good start.
(*) Apparently, the clever way to do this sort of thing is to have done
some other quest, possibly an apparently unrelated one, and "segue'"
from one to the other at the appropriate moment. Say, on the HoG quest,
when Orlanth lunges at me, and I nimbly perform the appropriate part
of the "Becoming a Vrok hawk and crapping on Rebullus Terminus from a
Great Height" quest (one I made earlier, of course), then returning
to a later Station of the HoG quest proper, to take a rather feebly
contrived example.
Cheers,
Alex.
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