From: Michael Cule (mikec@room3b.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun 29 Jun 1997 - 13:37:37 EEST
First a point Nils made about Pendragon:
>I haven't seen the high skills problem others have
>encountered though. I mean, you have to burn a lot
>of Glory just to get from 15 to 20.
So who burns Glory that way? You take skills up to 20 by the long slow
slog of yearly training and experience ticks. Then you use Glory to push
it above 20.
Then it's me and Alex going round and round and round.....
>Mike Cule says the quaint ol' DP Superhero/Infinity rune equation:
>> [...] is needed to account for certain phenomena.
>
>Only under certain other assumptions, such as the infamous Will one;
>I think Harrek _ought_ to be accountable for by HQ mechanics, without
>an entirely shamless Superhero Ex Machina. Just don't press me for
>the details, quite yet...
Well, the mechanics I'm proposing are trying to reflect what Greg says
>> >But I think that some of the things Will is used for, are such that
about how HQ works and the observable facts about Glorantha. However we
express it mechanically, most HeroQuests are supported by social units
and fail without them. But occasionally along comes a bugger like Harrek
who makes nonsense of the whole set of assumptions.
>> >they _ought_ to be "improvable" by HQ.
>
>> The HeroPlane, in fact the entire cosmos, is embodied Will. While what
>> you do on the Hero Plane may give you +100 skill in Rafia Weaving, that
>> isn't going to increase your Will by an iota.
>
>I'm not suggesting it _should_ though; I'm saying this is a flaw, or
>at least, a serious limitation, in the whole "Will" concept.
>Gloranthans _do_, at least according to Greg anecdote, HQ to make it
>easier (or possible) to accomplish other HQs. The numeric Will
>idea tends to make each successive HQ _harder_, at least in many
>respects.
Well, in some respects (but not many) it does. And that's intentional.
You gain other benefits from the earlier Questings. The sacrifice of
Will is only the final bit to cement it. And you can gain effective Will
by binding yourself to a HeroQuesting Ring. But eventually you loose
out.
The way I see the 'typical' HeroQuester's career going is something like
this:
1) The Quester performs a 're-enactment' Quest or two to gain some
benefits that are already known about. He looses some Will (or has a few
of his personality traits modified or however we express the cost) but
gains some measurable benefits. He becomes a tougher proposition on the
Mundane Plane.
2) Then he forms his HeroQuesting Ring, based on the reputation his
earlier Questings have given him. The companions of the Ring tie their
Wills together in a magical ritual. Each will bind some of his Will to
form the Ring (the Leader more than most possibly) but the Leader of the
Ring can now focus the Will given by the others to perform the purpose
of the Ring. (There may be possibilities for treachery here if the
Leader wants to use the Ring for purposes for which it was not
designed.)
3) The Ring then performs its great defining Quests. Will from all
members is used to bind the result into permanent Reality. A truely
great Quester such as Argrath may do this more than once.
4) The Ring forms the core of the Hero cult that keeps the new Reality
from vanishing. As time goes by the Hero burns the last of his Will
keeping himself on the Mundane Plane ("Just one more year.... I need
just one more year...") or expanding the cult.
>[Experimentally dodging Orlanth on the HoG]
>> The trick isn't avoiding Orlanth (though that should be reasonably
>> difficult). The trick is, when you return to the Mundane Plane, making
>> that change real for the rest of Glorantha.
>
>Which is why I think "type I" and "type II" aren't the "correct"
>distinctions to make. You seem to be, broadly speaking, saying
>that the important, distinct sorts are (what I'd call) "shallow,
>re-enactment" HQs, and on the other hand, "deep, extrapolative"
>(or Experimental, if you prefer). Firstly, I'm saying that there
>are two, somewhat orthogonal, notions going on here; and secondly,
>that neither is in principle so different from the other as to
>require an entirely different explanation, or "mechanism".
A quest can be both shallow and experimental, deep and re-enactment. The
depth of the quest will affect the difficulty of doing it as well as the
cost of making it real. The further into the HeroPlane you go, the
harder and more numerous the tasks you have to fulfill to complete it.
The Lightbringer's Quest is a re-enactment quest. But it is horrendously
long and complex. I'm unclear at this moment whether to classify the
climax (where the successful Quester can ask the assembled Gods for
virtually anything) would count as re-enactment though. Arguably not.
I would argue that Argrath did first the most complex re-enactment quest
>> But when you return and pass through to the Mundane Plane, that is the
possible and then a totally new extrapolative quest to free Sheng
Seleris.
>> point at which you must give up part of your Free Will (whether we
>> express it as a numeric characteristic or effects on Traits) to make it
>> real and part of the Web of Arachne Solara.
>
>I'm not sure I see the significance of this requirement Why isn't
>the "will" expended in _doing_ the things? I don't immediately see
>why the quester ought to have the option of abandonning an "unsaved
>position", without paying the "cost" of his actions.
But there are two costs. You pay in blood, toil, tears and sweat (and
>And the same applies to a small-beer HQer, as much as a Real Hero(TM).
possibly the death of body and soul) to get the change made. And then
you pay again to fix it and make it real.
>The difference is just the the first makes a small change, in this
>case too small to make a dent in the "received mythology" of anyone
>much, except possibly himself and some cronies. And it makes it
>only marginally easier for someone to follow him. The real difficulty,
>though, is that if a sub-Hero tried to do this, he might be able to
>avoid Orlanth, but doing so would almost certainly make it impossible
>to complete the quest in a satisfactory way.
I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. It is true that a Hero of
the Cult of Rafia Working won't need to sacrifice as much as a Hero of
Humakt when he tries to make a change in the myth of his god. Why is
this a problem?
As you note what I'm saying works best for the culture we know most
about, the Manirian Orlanthi.
I note what you say about Chaosium's hostility to the single Free Will
characteristic. But I think we can use this model to talk about the
issues involved in all mechanics. (And in fact we are.)
I'm not unsympathetic myself to some of the other approaches being
batted around. The 'stored POW affecting personality' idea strikes me as
being especially promising since it integrates Rune Magic into a
continuum with the abilities gained from Hero Questing.
But I do think we need to make a distinction between Re-enactment and
Experimental as regards costs and effects. It can't be a hard
distinction since There Are Exceptions To Every Rule. The Lightbringer's
Quest for example certainly blurs the distinction. But I think it is
still a real and useful one.
- --
Michael Cule
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