From: Sandy Petersen (SPetersen@ensemblestudios.com)
Date: Thu 02 Oct 1997 - 02:02:25 EEST
>The Pelorian blues _are_ water-linked - they're children
>of the Blue Moon, just like the Artmali! The Blue Moon is
>Why only "just like the Artmali"? They seem to have been (or
>unpleasant a people than the Artmali
I meant only that the Artmali & Pelorian blues are both
children of the Blue Moon. No other resemblance was implied. The Doraddi
tell terrible stories about how wicked the Artmali Empire was, by the
>There are no Pelorian blues left. But they came from the
>Blue Moon Plateau. None are left there - trolls killed any that
>remained behind, and then took over their religion.
>Then what about the people of (and below) the Sweet Sea and
What about them? They're thoroughly inbred with the
locals. I should have said that there are no "pure" Pelorian blues left.
For that matter, I'd be amazed to learn that there was anyone left with
more than 1 part in 10 of blue blood any more.
> Maybe no one knows any more. They probably came over at
>the same time as the Men-and-a-Half. There _was_ a landmass
>the way - the Spike.
There also was Raging Sea sundering the Spike from Genertela. I
thought that the Men-and-a-half crossed part of the passage on
That floating island appears conveniently in the Raging Sea on
the map of
the Troll migrations...
But if the loper people were Veldang, and had sea ties, why should
Sea have stopped them?
The loper people weren't sailors, though. Still,
nothing prevents them hiring boats or sailing on the backs of giant
turtles, or being carried on magic tides, etc.
> it's hard to imagine a more oppressive situation than humans
ruled over by trolls.
>Offhand, how 'bout humans ruled over by *elves*?
The cases on Glorantha where humans _are_ ruled by elves would
appear to imply that it is a less onerous situation than that of the
trolls. For that matter, let's do a fun comparison.
Examples of humans ruled by trolls
1) The Only Old One
2) Arkat's Dark Empire
3) The Kingdom of Ignorance
4) the Kitori
Examples of humans ruled by elves
1) Errinoru's Elf Empire
2) the elfdoms of Umathela
3) the elfdoms of Elamle
Examples of humans ruled by dwarfs
2) Dwarf Run
Hmm. I would argue that, in order of egregious suppression, the
above 9 situations, from worst to best, are as follows:
9 (the worst) - Dwarf Run (forced to worship cannons &
8 - the Kingdom of Ignorance ("the Blood Sun" what else
needs be said?)
7 - Arkat's Dark Empire (very savage and repressive by
all accounts. On the other hand, our only accounts are handed down from
the Empire's foes... Still, it seems unlikely that it was a paragon of
brotherhood and egalitarianism.)
6 - Errinoru's Elf Empire. (Humans were kept strictly
under control, as were all other non-plants. They weren't killed off or
forced into slavery - just forced to fit their ecological role, as seen
by the elves.)
5 - Slon (the humans aren't exactly oppressed, but they
aren't allowed to do as they please either. Some are treated like wild
animals by the dwarfs, others are treated as fourth-rate dwarfs.)
4 - The Only Old One (humans were pretty much allowed to
live their lives, just pay tribute to the trolls)
3 - the elfdoms of Umathela (the humans are considered
nearly or fully equal to the elves. In some cases, the overlap is equal
to that of the Kitori.)
2 - the Kitori tribe is fully equal between troll &
human, at least from the human point of view. Goddess only knows what
the trolls' true motivations are.
1 - The elfdoms of Elamle (the humans & elves get along
fine and consider one another separate-but-equal. This is perhaps an
unfair example since the situation was set up by one of Glorantha's few
this is of course wholly subjective.
>Sandy said something about 'willing submission' making
something not a
>rape, but with big warrior god Ragnaglar with a sword (Death)
>Thed with rape, her submission is NOT tantemount to desire for
>does not make it any more 'wholesome'.
I didn't mean that the subject had to fight back physically for every
second of the rape for it to count as a "real" rape. The difference
between forcible seduction and rape may sometimes be quite small,
Example: a broo holds his sword to your throat and forces you to submit.
Example two: an Orlanthi king tells you that your brother is his
prisoner and if you don't submit, he'll have your brother killed. Is
this rape? Does it matter? Both are wicked. But the latter would not be
considered sacred to Thed, IMO.
>Theds desire was for revenge on the whole stinking world, and
>the result of her intentions.
Wakboth was not the product of Thed's intentions - he
was a horror from Outside. Her intentions enabled him to come through,
but she didn't create him.
>I do not think Ragnaglar, Thed and Malia necessarily were in
Cahoots but they are the responsible forces for >the creation of the
It is clear from a number of sources that Ragnaglar
planned and plotted and took actions to create the Devil. Of course, his
manipulations may have been intended to cause Thed to act as she did,
but Malia, Thed, and Ragnaglar all had to do very specific acts to
summon forth the Devil. It wasn't just Thed being upset at her rape
(though of course her rage, impotence, and frustration was tapped to
help succeed in the act). Plenty of other folks were raped in the Gods
War without any Devils being born.
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