From: Brian Childers (BChilders@prevuenet.com)
Date: Mon 24 Nov 1997 - 18:11:06 EET
As has been said before, not all of the race of the Mostali necessarily
worship him or follow the path of the World Machine. Although prying
the secrets of the Mostali from them is still difficult, it is not
impossible.
BC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com
[SMTP:owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 1997 2:38 PM
To: glorantha-digest@chaosium.com
Subject: The Glorantha Digest V5 #235
The Glorantha Digest Saturday, November 22 1997 Volume 05
: Number 235
TABLE OF CONTENTS
nillo@tao.agoron.com Law and Chaos:Disputing Bill
Thompson
allen wallace Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #234
Mmohrfield@aol.com Re: Vormain
Scott Haney The nature of Chaos...and maybe a
RULES OF THE ROAD
1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:33:13 -0500
> Sorry, Bill, I have to dispute you on a few points.
few Gods
Especially
not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be
excoriated.
If someone writes something good and you want to say "good
show"
please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment
on a
point-by-point basis.
4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless
you're ready
to stand by it.
From: <nillo@tao.agoron.com>
Subject: Law and Chaos:Disputing Bill Thompson
>
> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:02:48 -0800 (PST)
> From: Bill Thompson <interlit@pacificcoast.net>
> Subject: Chaos and Law
>
> Simon Hibbs said;
>
> >I'm afraid you realy don't seem to be clarifying anything,
just adding to
> >the profusion of confused terminology.
>
> Sorry Simon, If you are going to deal with Chaos there are
certain terms
> that have to be in your lexicon. They are all interwoven(as
most
> relationships are) and to ignore one is to lose track of the
pattern. Sandy
> spoke of Disorder back in V.1 when he stated that the God
learners knew the
> difference between Disorder and Chaos.
>
> >Equlay, magic cannot exist in contact with pure chaos. It is
disrupted,
> >.absorbed and disintegrated.
>
> If we accept that Chaos is the raw material of creation then
it follows
> that all of creation comes out of Chaos. Additionally most
creation myths
> have the elder Gods coming out of Chaos as well. If the Gods
created
> Glorantha then they used Chaos and manipulated it in some
fashion.
> Obviously then magic can interact with Chaos without being
destroyed.
A pertinent question is here... what is Magic? Magic, as
defined by it's
Gloranthanrunic definition, is communication between the
otherworld and the mundane
plane.
Chaos, according to works such as Cults of Terror/Lords of
Terror and others,
"Destroys all possibiltiies of individuality and unity." Chaos,
for Gloranthans,
is literally the death of the world (and for the follower of
Draconic Mysteries, or
the Illuminant, it's birth as well.) Any magic that is Chaotic
or Chaotically aspected
can only serve the forms and purposes of Chaos, which is the
destruction of
existence and transformation of it into non-existence... Chaos
magic
(The bringing forth of Chaos from the otherworld into the
mundane Gloranthan Reality)
can only bring forth that end, ultimately. Tap in it's various
forms is the best
example,
but any Chaos Rune Spell meets that end.
> >The physical matter of Glorantha was orriginaly created from
chaos, but it
> >was changed fundamentaly by that process - it isn't chaos
anymore and
> >confusing chaos with magic is unhelpfull.
>
> I am not saying that magic is chaos. Rather that Magic is the
tool that is
> used to allow Chaos to interact with the world. The effect of
chaos is
> change, creativity, destruction... sounds like general
headings for most
> spells doesn't it.
>
> In addition we find that some of the Gods themselves carry the
Chaos rune;
> Ragnaglar and Seseine as examples.
>
These are Chaos Gods, remember. Seseine and Ragnaglar are
partially outsideof Creation,
as most Chaos gods are.
> >. Magic cannot exist in the presence of that
> >which cannot be connected to, bound with or influenced.
>
> If this were the case then these Gods would not exist and the
chaos rune
> could not be tied to anything. Bagog, Krjalk and most of the
"Terror" cults
> would wonder why all their Divine Magic has dried up and all
of there
> heroes who have attained Rune affinity would be unable to work
magic..
>
Remember, in RQ2, Magic is a condition rune, one of the rare few
of it'stype (the only
other condition runes are Infinity and Mastery.) Magic, as
a Rune, is more of a modifier than anything else, implying
mundane world/
otherworld interacion. In the case of the Chaos Gods, think of
the the
Magic rune as the channel through which their powers flow into
the mundane
world (the same as how the runic powers of other Gods function.)
While
not all deities possess the Magic Rune as one of their primary
attributes
(the only ones that I know of are Glorantha, mother of the
Cosmos, and
the Invisible God... Who I feel are one and the same being! I'll
save that for
a later post,. though), all deities use the Magic rune as a
function of being a god
and interacting with the world of Time and their mortal
followers.
> So to the original question is law the antithesis of Chaos.
> No. in fact the Law rune may supecede chaos. If Chaos can be
acted upon
> and manipulated then there must be some causal force which
says how this
> may be done. Peter metcalf says that the Law rune is simply
the laws of the
> universe.
> I think that we might look at stasis as being the antithesis
of chaos.
> Where Chaos represents change and diversity, Stasis represents
stability
> and order.
This is one of my sore points... Chaos, in Glorantha, is not
MoorcockChaos, as
delineated in his Stormbringer novels. Chaos is NOT change
and diversity... It's primal infinity and void, from which all
creation comes,
and which contains infinite possibilities. Change, in
Glorantha, is a function
of the Change/Mobility rune, which represents changes in ideas,
locations,
cultures, opinions and the world which is represented by cults
such as
Orlanth, Issaries and the like. Change represents not only
travel (Mastakos),
but also social mobility, change and development in ideas, and
changes in
one's life that make sense and are related to the context of
one's own
surroundings. Chaos, on the other hand, is an infinity that is
unhindered by
logic. This can explain the hatred many Chaos creatures have
for the world...
Glorantha's laws force them into weak, pitiful, finite
manifestations, bound by
the laws of Time. If Time and the world were destroyed by
Chaos, then
Chaos creatures woud become *all things*. But, in becoming
infinity,
they'd effectively become nothing. To Lawful creatures, this is
the Soul Death,
while to Chaotics, it's the ultimate liberation and
transcendence to Godhead.
Again, only the Draconics, Illuminants and Lunars understand
both sides of this
conundrum.
> So try this on for size. The stasis Rune is Mostali in origin.
Mostali as
> the first born have the strongest memories of Chaos and ally
themselves
> with its antithesis, Stasis.
Actually, the Mostali were created by the World Machine, by a
combinationof the Stasis,
Earth and Man runes, to service the world machine. The 'Elder'
races aren't actually older than mankind, but are called Elder
because their
histories and cultures have unbroken continuity before the
darkness, while
human kingdoms and cultures have risen, fallen and risen in new
forms.
At least the Uz, Dragonewts and Aldryami are as old as the
Mostali,
and have memories just as strong of Chaos.
Another point - Runically, at least according to the god
learners,
the opposite Power to Stasis is not Chaos, but Mobility/Change.
> Mostali take truestone which was created by Mostal to hold
creation
> together(the spike). It does this because trustone is rich
with Stasis and
> resists the effect of Chaos.
>
Krarsht disproves this. Krarsht uses Stasis to make the world
malfunction,through
corruption and greed, just as much as Pocharngo uses
Change/Mobility
to do the same thing. Stasis is no more resistant to Chaos than
Change is!
> Now, the Mostali take this truestone which already has pretty
heavy
> cultural significance and they place there strongest magics
upon it,
> reforging it and making it purer. The end result is Admantium
which is
> focused Stasis.
>
> Magic will not work on the Admantium because magic invokes
(indirectly) the
> power of chaos and in this case the Admantium is a much
stronger because it
> has a direct link to (may in fact be a part of..) the Stasis
Rune.
>
> Similarily magic worked in the vincinity of Admantium will be
affected as
> though the very world around them is resisting the results of
the spell
>
> Some may argue that motion and stasis are opposites but
remember that the
> paired runes are a God learner construct and should be
suspect...
> I think that Motion and stasis merely dislike each other in a
rather vague
> unfocused way. Stasis and Chaos on the other hand are like
matter and
> anti-matter if you bring them together in their pure form they
both cease
> to exist. During the Great Darkness "Life met anti-life and
everything
> imploded into nothingness"
>
The published sources disagree with you. Even non-God Learner
sourcesgeneraly agree
that Chaos is not 'Anti-Stasis', but 'Anti-Life', life
representing
the whole of the Cosmos as opposed to the runic power.
Sometimes Greg uses the
term Life to represent existence, and all the Runic powers of
the world, and
'Anti-Life' (represented by Kajaboor world-eater) to represent
Chaos, the
howling void which desires to consume the world.
> Finally.
>
> >Magic is what makes Glorantha what it is. Everything in
Glorantha that
> >isn't either pure Chaos, or pure Law, is magical.
>
> Say Rather:
> Everything which isn't pure Chaos or Pure Stasis is magical.
Because Magic
> is the vessel used by Law to express how Chaos and Magic may
be combined.
> Everything in Glorantha is an orderly expression of Chaos.
People start as
> babies and get old. This is Change, but a very
> smooth and orderly form thereof. Trees change with the
seasons, so do the
> woodfolk. Everwhere in Glorantha there is the smooth orderly
expression of
> controlled Chaos.
I agree 100% here, except in your use of the term Stasis. I'd
substitute 'Law'
or'Life'. Very Illuminated!
> During the Great Darkness, raw uncontrolled Chaos came into
Glorantha.
> Through the vessel Wakboth it entered the world unchecked by
Law.The Life
> of Glorantha allied themselves with Law to regain control of
Chaos and
> eject it from Glorantha. Some among those who fought were
better able to
> express Law and were more effective in the Battle. Eater of
Chaos the Troll
> was able to defeat chaos by consuming it and making it subject
to the most
> powerful Law of Uz, Digestion. Once Chaos has been made
subject to Law
> again then Chaos becomes controllable.
>
> The end result of the war. law wins and Chaos is controlled.
But Chaos has
> strengthened its position. How do we know this? Because people
age faster,
> seasons turn faster...
I disagree. Change is good. But then, I'm strongly Orlanthi!
> .
>
> Faster change = stronger Chaos.
>
Nopers, faster Change=Stronger Law, Life! Witness Yelm's
stagnant rule,and the need for
Orlanth's forcing him to change and acknowledge his own
error. Witness Orlanth's change through the acknowledgement of
his own
(Orlanth's) crime! While still performing a service to the
world, and saving it
from stagant disintegration (perhaps a slow death and eventual
invasion from
Chaos later, as opposed to the disastrous war he instigated), he
also
committed a heinous crime he had to admit to, and make
recompense for.
Change supports law, Stasis/Stagnation brings forth Chaos, by
all going forth
into the unchanging, static, howling void of unbeing. The Red
Goddess brought
forth change, forcing the world to deal with her, causing it
pain, but bringing forth
knowledge and new insights, forcing it to become wiser. She
made Orlanth change,
via his servant Argrath, by calling forth old Dragon powers and
insights similar to
those offered by the Red Goddess, yet fundamentally different.
As the unchanging
GodTime and the shifting void of Chaos interact, Life and Time
are made.
> Bill Thompson.
Paraphrasing and summing up...
Bill, you seem to have a more Moorcockian ideal of Law, in
Glorantha, meaning
Unchange, or Stasis. In this, I disagree with you. I
personally feel that discerning
the difference between Law and Chaos vis a vis Change/Mobility
and Stasis is a
toughie for most Gloranthan fans. However, here are my
thoughts.
Law is the world, literally, and is the synthesis of it's
component powers. Law is
Sanity, the compreghensible world of Glorantha, and is best
described by
Logical Sorcery in this sense. In this way, the insights of the
God Learners made
sense, as they saw the world as a series of Elements, Powers,
Conditions and
Forms which interacted and made up the world we know (Glorantha)
today.
Law differs from Stasis in two ways... One, it includes
provision for orderly
Change (the change of seasons, movement from one local to
another, ageing,
even changes in cultures and philosophy, represented by
history.) Stasis, on the
other hand, represents unchanging principles in the world which
remain constant,
such as the solidity of Stone, mathematics, and laws which are
used to govern men.
Secondly, Law is a form rune, like Chaos is, while Stasis is one
of the powers.
Law is also the Immortal world of the GodTime. By definition,
the GodTime
and the beings within it can not change, as they form the
platonic foundation of
the world. If you muck around with the GodTime, you can destroy
the universe.
This, IMO, is the ultimate reason why Glorantha as a world
destroyed the God
Learners. In their foolish manipulations of Myth they almost
destroyed the world,
being just as dangerous as Gbaji was to the world within Time.
In their own way,
the GL's were just as much agents of Chaos as the armies of
Wakboth were
during the GodTime.
As for the GL's being suspect... Has any Gloranthan culture come
up with a better
system that can be applied world wide? Despite the abuses of the
God Learners,
their runic system and philosophies are now the Lingua Franca
for Gloranthan mystics
and magicians. One can admire and use Latin while hating the
Roman Empire. :)
The GL's were empirical scientists, and despite whatever else
you may feel about them
they were experts at observing phenomena impartially... Thus,
their insights into other
cultures aren't necessarily always suspect (indeed, their powers
could not have been
achieved if they were totally overwhelmed by their biases.)Only
in their later period
did
they lose respect for the world and almost destroy it.
In Lord of Terror, in a section on the Dragon Creation Myth,
Chaos is defined as
being everything that is not Law. Chaos is the womb and grave
of creation for
Glorantha, the beginning and end of everything. To make it a
mere opposite of Stasis
robs Chaos in Glorantha of it's grandeur, glory and horror.
Chaos is insanity, the
insanity that makes creation possible and can destroy the world.
Draconics and
Illuminates, especially Lunars, understand this, and attempt to
harness this Glorious
aspect of Chaos. Existence, or Time, requires Chaos just as
much as the Law of
GodTime, and the Spider Arachne Solara understood this as the
Compromise was
forged (all you non-compromise believers, insert your myths
here. ;) Existence/Time
is a buffer between the howling void of Chaos and the Immortal
Law of GodTime. It's
the only way the GodTime can exist, as it would be destroyed
(indeed, was, in the I
fought/
We Won, before being created anew by the mortal creatures of the
world) by direct
exposure to the void. IMO, Interactions of any kind, but
especially between
Chaos, Time, and GodTime are what makes magic possible in
Glorantha.
Well, it's long and spammy, but I hoped I was able to make my
ideas clear.
Chris Bell
mailto:remster@interport.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:57:12 -0800 (PST)
From: allen wallace <alwallac@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #234
On the taboos on goats and dogs for the orlanthi. I suspect the
dogs are
banned on two counts, attachment to Telmor, ( the excellent
Voriof Cult
aside) and the dogs 'natural antipathy' to the alynx. The goats
are
easier, in several sources there are chaos-goat ties, in names
if not in
the world. A lot of people tie Broo and Ragnaglar to goats as
well, don't
know why on the second unless its a lust/lechery/sexual thing.
Goats also
have that look that causes people in the RW to ascribe them
similar
features. It doesn't have to be any more than that in a symbol
sensitive
culture.
One other thing, on an old thread, Pilots have in RW been a
very
prestige position. You aren't talking a glorified helmsman, this
is the
main who could handle a ship well enough to be trusted with the
safety of
both ship and docks. The pilot had absolute command while on
board. I
suspect in the advancement version of Hrestolism, the pilot is
what the
Captain advances to. Besides the pilot has a
home/family/political life
that isn't all interuptions.
Allen
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:53:53 -0500 (EST)
From: <Mmohrfield@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Vormain
Tadaaki Kakegawa writes
<<P.S. If you have a chance, please go to see Anime-Movie
"Mononoke
Princess" directed by Mr. Miyazaki. That is my image on
Vormain.
>>
Is that Hayao Miyazaki you're talking about? I haven't seen
"Mononoke
Princess", but I think that the Sea of Corruption from
"Nausicaa" could serve
as an excellent model for Sporewood in Dagori Inkarth. It's even
got the
giant insects!
Mark
Mohrfield
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 14:01:44 CDT
From: scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us (Scott Haney)
Subject: The nature of Chaos...and maybe a few Gods
& From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe@toppoint.de>
& Subject: The Nature of Chaos
&
& Chaos has come from the Primal Void _outside of the Universe_,
from which
& the Universe has come. The Primal Void is neither destructive
nor
& creative, it simply is outside of everything. In other words:
the Primal
& Void is Right where it is.
&
[lots of good stuff snipped.]
Kudos to Joerg for a spit-spot explanation of the difference
between
Chaos and the Void. (Of course, the typical Gloranthan would be
oblivious to the difference.)
Not all that came to Glorantha from the Void is necessarily
Chaotic,
though. In the Void, creation and destruction constantly occur.
Some
things last mere moments (if "moment" can be defined there);
others last
a long time. Still others are able to alter their surroundings
in the
Void and sustain themselves. Two of the most notable to
Gloranthans
are Krarsht (considered Chaotic) and Arachne Solara (not
Chaotic).
Neither of these were born of Glorantha.
In fact, one can categorize the gods of Glorantha somewhat by
source or
origin. (Note: I don't feel that a god can be fully or even
mostly
pigeonholed this way...I tend to see them as part of a
continuum.
I should probably wash my mouth out with soap for sounding like
a
God Learner. :)
Category Examples
-------- --------
Gods born outside of Glorantha Arachne Solara, Krarsht
Gods born within Glorantha Orlanth, Somash, Yelm,
etc
Gods born within Glorantha, Tien, Thed, Malia,
Krjalk
but changed horribly by the most Chaos gods
incursion of Chaos or Void
Gods formed from the Wakboth, Pocharngo
incursion itself
I think this needs a bit of work. For example, I don't know
where
I'd put Nysalor. I've been toying with the idea of having him be
one
of the few category 4 gods who are not Chaotic. (The Arkati are
now
on their way to my house...) And I think there might be another
god in category 1.
At any rate, your Glorantha may vary.
Scott, Baron von Moosehsunchen (recently inspired so much by
the
Moose Turd Pie story that I'm thinking of Gloranthafying it and
posting it to the list.)
Scott Haney scotty@olivia.cedar-rapids.ia.us
"To err is human, to forgive, beyond the scope of the Operating
System"
------------------------------
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #235
***********************************
To unsubscribe from the Glorantha Digest, send an "unsubscribe"
command to glorantha-digest-request@chaosium.com. Glorantha is a
Trademark of Chaosium Inc. With the exception of previously
copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in
this
digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights
granted to
copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to
archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.
WWW at http://rider.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
------------------------------
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #237
***********************************
To unsubscribe from the Glorantha Digest, send an "unsubscribe"
command to glorantha-digest-request@chaosium.com. Glorantha is a
Trademark of Chaosium Inc. With the exception of previously
copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this
digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to
copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to
archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.
WWW at http://rider.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 21:52:39 EEST