Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #344

From: Kaselov-Sandberg (md24855@dredd.swipnet.se)
Date: Wed 21 Jan 1998 - 10:00:07 EET


- ----------
> Fr=E5n: The Glorantha Digest
<owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com>
> Till: glorantha-digest@chaosium.com
> =C4mne: The Glorantha Digest V5 #344
> Datum: den 21 januari 1998 05:28
>=20
>=20
> The Glorantha Digest Wednesday, January 21 1998 Volume
05 : Number 344
>=20
>=20
>=20
> TABLE OF CONTENTS
>=20
> James Frusetta Kumbaya -- NOT! =20
          =20
> were.ralph Genertela =20
          =20
> Mark Sabalauskas Dendara non est hoc... =20
          =20
> Jane Williams Re: Starting a campaign, blank
heroes =20
> Peter Metcalfe Scandinavian Pent? =20
          =20
> allen wallace Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #340=20
          =20
> Peter Metcalfe Elemental matters =20
          =20
> MLaurie@compuserve.com Re:Onslaught controversy =20
          =20
>=20
> RULES OF THE ROAD
>=20
> 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply.
Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be
excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good
show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
> 2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
> 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment
on a
> point-by-point basis.
> 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless
you're ready
> to stand by it.
>=20
>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
>=20
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:53:53 -0500 (EST)
> From: James Frusetta <gerakkag@wam.umd.edu>
> Subject: Kumbaya -- NOT!
>=20
> Sergio Mascarenhas wrote:
>=20
> > Trolls, hoomans, elfs and dwarfs are all very similar.
That's=20
> > because, yes, they are all quasi-humans.
> Hmm, poor wording on my part. Yes, they're all man-rune
critters. What I
> object to is taking Wargh the Troll, stripping him of his
trollishness,
> and having him live in Orlanthi town. He's now a hooman (at
least
> culturally) with a big STR and SIZ. I want Wargh to be a
troll, and to
> keep his distinctly trollish culture.
> =20
> > Why do you think this is an un-human behavior? In which
world do you live=20
> > on?=20
> Mars. ;)
>=20
> No, you missed my point. It is *not* that the Elder Races are
not as
> cheerfully genocidal as humans -- I'm sure I could stick
trolls in the
> Banat, elves in the Sanjak and dwarves in Kosovo and they'd
gleefully
> pitch in against the human inhabitants and each other.=20
>=20
> My point is that is that the *Elder Races* don't want to live
in peace
> with hoomans (where Panu had stressed that hoomans don't want
the ER
> around). Yes, this is "human." It does not mean they want to
live next to
> humans -- they want to force humans to fit into troll culture.
Very
> different, to me. Why make 'em?=20
>=20
> > Humm, I can also ask, why limit non-humans (the way you and
current=20
> > Gloranthan materials and prevailing approaches do) so that
humans cannot=20
> > live as minorities in non-human cultures?
> Without meaning to be rude, read carefully what I wrote and
what you
> responded to: quote, "Not to say this doesn't happen on
occasion (or in
> the other direction, too), and the results can be interesting,
but why
> make it a generic standard?" (V5, #341)=20
>=20
> Humans can live as minorities in non-human cultures, and
non-humans can
> live as minorities in human cultures. They *can* understand
each other,
> IMO. Not a problem at all: offhand, just for trolls, you have
the BMP
> humans, the Kitori, the friends of AA in Ralios, human ZZites,
friendly
> human tribesmen in the Yolps.
>=20
> But in all cases, they've given up some of their culture and
adopted parts
> of trollish culture. Great! Cool! I've nothing against it, I
swear. ;)
> Until this stops being a minority and starts being the
*standard*. I want
> my trolls to defend their culture and heritage, not live on
reservations
> thoughtfully set aside for them by the hoomans. ("Say, you
trolls don't
> want to live in Dakori Inkarth! We're moving you to new lands
in the
> Wastelands, where you can learn to farm! Plus, we'll be
sending your kids
> away to Orlanthi boarding school...")
>=20
> > The problem is that the way Gloranthan elder races are
described these=20
> > days, makes them unsuited to be acceptable 'player-character
species'.
>=20
> True... though part of this is surely because most ER have
good reasons to
> be at home. Hard to play a troll without missing KL
ceremonies, for
> example. Even if there are good reasons for it, I agree it's
annoying. But
> if you're willing to give up your ER religion and expect a
little razzing,
> you can still adventure -- and I've always figured that an
extra +6 STR,
> 2d6 POW elfbow or armful of iron is a nice consolation prize.
If there's
> no cultural problems, who in their right mind wouldn't play a
Green Elf?
> I'm sure some of it must be game balance.
>=20
> > A final note: in Glorantha, like in the RW, the most
compeling reason for=20
> > people from different origins to live together are:
> <snip>
> > In both cases, over time both races will build a common
culture and start=20
> > to share some interests.
>=20
> Good point. But this has not stopped horrible inter-cultural
disputes in
> the RW, after all. Ask a Moor, a Huegnot, a Bogomil, a Jew, a
Cherokee or
> an Anatolian Greek how much their providing special skills to
another
> cultural group enabled them to live without oppression or
prejudice. If a
> big ol' clan of trolls settle down in human lands and continue
typical
> troll practices, eventually there's gonna be a pogrom. (And
note that all
> but one of these examples are pre-nationalism --
inter-cultural struggles
> weren't quite as bad before 1798, but they still existed.)*=20
>=20
> Dan McCl(uz)key's points on this are right-on. It is _not_
impossible to
> have an elder race individual, or small group, adventure or
settle in
> human lands -- or vice versa. Even up to a clan, maybe, under
the right
> conditions. But large groups? Not unless they either give up
huge amounts
> of their culture or the majority, ruling group is stand-offish
with no
> desire to enforce their own culture (eg, the Mongols and Rus
- -- or the
> OOO).=20
>=20
> Jamuz Frusetta
>=20
>=20
> * Slightly off topic, note that there could be some
interesting arguments
> concerning "imagined communities" in Glorantha. You wouldn't
have
> nationalism along the lines of Gellner or Hobsbawm (two of the
big
> theorists), but the presence of clearly distinguishable
non-human races
> throws a spanner in the works.=20
>=20
> ------------------------------
>=20
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:58:58 -0800
> From: "were.ralph" <were.ralph@virgin.net>
> Subject: Genertela
>=20
> Just a quickie,
> How do you all pronounce Genertela?
> Does it have a hard or soft G.

> On which syllable does the stress fall?
> It's weird, but until recently, I'd only ever read it (not
said it), and
> I think I must have just looked at the word, rather than
'think' it to
> myself.(Does that actually make sense to anyone?!
> Ta!
> Ralph Plowman
>=20
> ------------------------------
>=20
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:05:09 -0500 (EST)
> From: Mark Sabalauskas <marks@tiac.net>
> Subject: Dendara non est hoc...
>=20
> > rember asking Greg - "What's this? Dendara a sky goddess?"
> >
> > And he said someting very like: "Yep. Sorry. It had to
be. All the
> > earlier references to her being an earth goddess are wrong.=20
Or maybe
> > misrepresentations from other cultures. She is a sky
diety."
> =20
> Humph! Typical. We objectivists *warned* you, but=20
> would you listen--no!
> =20
> Of course, things could be even more complicated, had=20
> Karsdevan had more guts, and not listened to the "wise men".
:-)
> =20
> > It seems to me, as I read more and more Gloranthan material,
that the
> > heroes of the Hero Wars are not going to be (my) PCs. It was
probably a
> > section in the Genertela box which crystalised this for me
where you're
> =20
> I'd like to second Nick's good advice, and also to add

> a few suggestions. You might want to take a look at how=20
> Pendragon handles the issue of having player characters do=20
> interesting and important things in a setting where the=20
> actions of well defined NPCs a driving an intricate=20
> meta-storyline. The Boy King (which has just been released)=20
> might be particularly instructive in this regard.
> =20
> Also, it's possible you might want to consider=20
> lowering your expectations as to how closely you want to stick

> to "the story" as revealed in "official" publications. Even=20
> if one spends a lot off effort towards that end, one can still

> get "gregged" and be faced with the difficulting of retconing=20
> all the PCs or NPCs who have the misfortune of worshiping some

> sun god or the other. The fact that you've already spent time

> thinking these things through suggests to me that you're=20
> probably a good gamemaster. Trust your instincts and the=20
> internal logic of the story you and your players will be=20
> creating together.=20
> =20
> Mark =20
>=20
> ------------------------------
>=20
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:46:08 +0000
> From: "Jane Williams" <jane@williams.nildram.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Starting a campaign, blank heroes
>=20
> Richard said:
> > Well, I read and I read and I read and I never seem to reach
the end of
> > all the information available on Glorantha.
> Me too. Keep trying - another ten years may do it.
>=20
> > ... (the Giant Cradle) - an event
> > which I would definately want my adventurers involved in. I
don't
> > understand why that scenario was not re-published - I feel
any Pavis
> > campaign set at 1621 is sabotaged without it.
Jane Williams wrote:
> On Blank Heroes and Blank Deeds: how about killing the Bat? We
all know=20
> it was defeated at Whitewall, but has the method or the list
of=20
> combatants ever been made official? Maybe Broyan got your PCs
to do the=20
> job.=20

Actually, I once asked Greg about this and he said something
like: "Weren=B4t that in KoS?...." Well, what Broyan and his
household did was, they know they can't kill the Bat as such.
But on the Bat's back there are riding a whole bunch of priests
controlling the actions and maneuvers of the 'B 52' and they can
be eliminated. Broyan and his housecarls (which in my campaign
involved some suicidal PCs) teleports up on the back of the bat
and chops the priests up (which in itself is not an easy
achivment - put not sheer impossible). The Bat is then
uncontrolled and wheels off into the unknown...

Of course there are a whole load of problems realting to game
rooles and such with this "solution", but I have never let rules
stop an epic scene in my campaign, and didn't do so this time
either.

The most obvious objection to this description is "When the Bat
gets uncontrolled wouldn't its first action be munching that
'whole-tasty-city-just-a-few-hundred-meters-away' up?" I never
got around asking Greg that one though...

> Who actually was it who summoned the Brown Dragon? We know a
few of the=20
> names, but not all: maybe they were PCs?

As I read the relevant passage in KoS, there is most likely more
than seven participants breaking into the Lunar Ceremony - if
your PCs aren't deeply into HQing and stuff they can at least be
good all plain bodyguards trying to hold the Lunars at bay while
Minaryth, Orlaront et al do their chanting/summoning thing...

______

To Peter Metcalfe, for his brilliant interpretation of Wolf
Vikings, Bija, Frosty Giant lands, etc: my deeply felt
admiration. I almost feel liking going there setting up a
campaign myself. Can't you all feel the mystery and hidden
secrets vibrating through Peter's paragraphs of ice and fleet
and hail....

Cheers,

Patrik
kaselov.sandberg@swipnet.se

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