Re: Entekos Dendara, nonhumans

From: Sergio Mascarenhas (
Date: Thu 22 Jan 1998 - 18:27:18 EET

Stephen Martin:
[After several arguments on why it would be difficult for humans to have a
peacefull coexistance with dwarfs, elves or trolls]
> I am not trying to make fun of you Sergio, merely trying to point out
> your viewpoints are somewhat unrealistic. Everything that you have
> described does occur somewhere in Glorantha, but only in small groups
> and rarely
I don't think that you are making fun of me.
Your arguments and those presented by Peter Metcalfe in GDv5#349 make a lot
of sense. This is nothing like saying different races can't go along
because 'they can't and they hate eachother, point'.

> You compare humans, dwarfs, elves, and trolls to other mammals, and
> say that the humanoids are a lot more like each other.
I do, and didn't find until now a compeling argument against it:

> But you ignore that elves are literally plants, not mammals;
The only plant I know that resembles elves is ginseng (hey, maybe that's
why troll eat elves...) :-)

> that dwarfs are called Clay Mostali for a very good reason;
Since I "love" orthodox Gloranthan dwarfs... (No, I don't want to come back
on this.)

> that trolls have more in common with their giant insects and giant
> than they do with humans, on many levels at least.
Giant insects are all very different, even more different then human-rune
associated species. Spiders are widely different from flyes, beatles, etc.
It's only us, mammals, that connect them in a single category. Why would
trolls do so and connect themselves with such category? Certainly not based
on their perceptions.

> A human thinks more like a dog or a whale than he does
> like an elf, dwarf, or even a troll, IMO.
I don't know much about what a dog or whale thinks. I know that I'm closer
to an ape then to a dog or whale. If I was a Gloranthan human I would think
that I was much closer to dwarfs, elves or trolls then to any other
species. After all, I could speak with them, I would be phisicaly similar
to them and have some common patterns of behavoir.

Sorry, but I think that there are some misunderstandings here. You can look
at elves (and the same aplies to any other species) in several different
ways or POV that we can decompose into the next categories IMO:
1. In-Gloranthan POV - means that we are looking at the species from the
POV of someone inside Glorantha:
1.1 Self culture POV - how the species looks at her self
1.2 Other culture POV - how species look at other species inside Glorantha
2. Meta-Gloranthan POV - meaning how we RW humans conceive and understand
Gloranthan species
3. Knowledge framework - meaning which type of knowledge supports your POV
3.1 Mythical POV - you look at species based on an existing mythical
framework and let that framework guide your understanding
3.2 Scientific POV - we approach species the same way a biologist or a RW
scientist deals with them
3.3 Pre-scientific POV - un-reflected perception, common-sense based POV

Now, IMO the In-Gloranthan POV of point 1. above would be based on a
combination of 3.1 and 3.3. Most gloranthan species and cultures would look
at themselves and others based on their mythical culture and common sense.
In that case, they could correspond to the pattern you described.

But when I'm discussing gloranthan species and cultures I'm mainly
discussing it from the meta-Gloranthan POV in point 2. Here I would base my
conclusions on all the point 3. POVs. And on what concerns the biological
relationship between species and their mind-sets, I would adopt the
Scientific POV.

Conclusion: IMO all those species are related mammals with similar
mind-sets. They have minor biological differences (minor in the sense that

the difference between a dwarf and a troll is minor compared to the
difference between any of them and a dragon), and minor mind-set
differences. Most of what makes them different is culture.



>Sergio writes
>> Look, putting
>> trolls to dark places is like imagining monsters under your
>> bed in the night. And like thinking that the abandoned house
>> is haunted. So usual, and, somewhat boring.

No I didn't. Man, don't blame me on things I don't write, I have already
enough guns pointed at me...


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