Elder Racewars

From: Peter Metcalfe (metcalph@voyager.co.nz)
Date: Sat 24 Jan 1998 - 01:32:03 EET

Sergio Mascarenhas:

>>>And you may very well live with other people without giving out your
>>>culture, if you accept to give out power.

Me>>Of course we'll let ourselves be enslaved by the trolls and give them
>>our babies and our cattle when they feel hungry!

>Exactly. The same way africans did some centuries ago...

Care to provide more details about this african culture?

>Notice that the notion that trolls eat anything, including sentient
>creatures is not present IMG. [...]

Well quite frankly Sergio, I don't give a damn what you do in
your glorantha. All I really interested in doing is trying to
understand what you don't like about the current write-up. I
have some ideas but nothing that persuades me that current model
of ER is completely flawed and must be abandoned. Do you have
a point to all these complaints?

>> I don't know about you but I do feel a lot safer living under a human
>> leader where he at least understands basic human needs.

>The question is wether the elf (or dwarf; or troll; or human) slavers will
>(quindly) ask you (or your leader) if you mind being enslaved...

Somehow I wonder why Sergio complains about the Elder Races being
unrealistic when he manages to produce gems like the above (and
the reservations). Voluntarily enslavement? Come _on_!

>There is something that puzzles me about statements like the one I just
>quoted: Why do you always think that the oppressed are humans and the
>oppressors ER? In third era Glorantha the opposite would be more likely
>(I'm not saying this is what happens...).

Dwarf slaves invariably become apostate in performing their tasks
for humans and die out. Troll slaves produce useless enlo. Elf
slaves are good for nothing.

>Think of it: a society where you don't have food shortages thanks to elf

Elves are _forest_ people. To thrive off a elf forest, one has to
be a hunter/gatherer. This all may be very well but hunter/gathering
supports fewer people per unit area than farming (1:10 is the rule
of the thumb).

>your dwarfs conceive to you beautifull and complex homes with all
>the commodities you may think about;

The dwarves are not geared towards servicing human needs. To
concieve of a need for a flush toilet would be beyond them.
Even the houses in Pavis are just buildings and little more.

>and all the hard work is done by
>trolls (which will live on any shit you throw at them)...

You forget the Trollkin curse. Two thirds of the uz are stoopid
enlo are useless for human purposes. It is much easier (and more
economical) to enslave fellow humans for labour and military

>>>Sometimes it's even better if you
>>>keep your culture: like in RW, when the dominant and the dominated ar
>>>of the same race, the dominant can prefer not to enforce their culture on
>>> you to keep the line that separates both peoples well delineated.

>> Name one culture where this was so.

>You know what the word gheto means (in Portugal we had "Mourarias" and
>"judiarias" until the Renaissance - moorish and jew ghetos respectively).
>Look at gypsies. Look at askenasi jewish communities in easter Europe until
>the second word war.

And why were moneylenders some prominent among them? Did the jews
have a natural instinct for making filthy lucre or was it an artifact
of Christian restrictions on what they may or may not do? Even then
one would find great cultural gulfs between the Jews of Spain and the
Jews of Poland (such as their language). Cultures _change_ under
domination by another culture - to believe a culture can remain
static is ludicrous.

>Since in Glorantha we are not dealing only with different
>cultures but with different species, I think it would be easier to have
>different people living togheter and keeping their cultures than in the RW.

And you have been provided with examples over and over again of what
happens under dwarf, elf and troll domination (by Stephen and me).
How can people 'keep' their culture intact under these circumstances?

- --Peter Metcalfe


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