GWD's, Cwim, Weekly, Lokarnos

From: Stephen Martin (
Date: Fri 06 Feb 1998 - 06:42:41 EET

David Cake
>Stephen queries if all Cradles need to have a Gold Wheel Dancer. I
>that in the Chaosium campaign, the first Cradle for hundreds of years
>occurred precisely because Cradles DO need a Gold Wheel Dancer, and the
>one resurrected by Urrgh the Ugly was what they had been waiting for.

A valid point. I'm sure if I had time I could come up with a good
justification for why nothing else would do in the last few centuries.

One possibility is that the God Learner changes to the magical ecology
caused some change which also prevented the Giants from creating a
guardian properly out of anything they have had in the meantime. This is
weak, I know, but I still prefer multiple guardians.

It could also be that other things might have worked, but that the
Closing of the Oceans had affected the giants as well. Once the Closing
was broken, the giants took a moment or two to make sure things looked OK
(keeping in mind that "a moment or two" to an Elder Giant could easily be
60 years). Or, it might take 60 years to make a giant baby, and the
newly-resurrected Gold Wheel Dancer was the handiest thing to use.

Though I admit this is also weak -- the fact that Pinchining wsa
resurrected sometime after 1611, but was still used as the guardian a
mere ten years later, implies a link between the giants and the GWD's.

However, I still dislike having the GWD's as the sole possible guardian
of a Cradle -- ultimately, my best argument is that it just does not
_feel_ right to me, or at least there is some major component missing
from the calculation. I am still stuck with the statement that GWD's were
extinct by the end of the First Age. Unless -- my memory is tickling me,
is there an alternate source which mentions the Second Age in connection
with the GWD's? Nick, Peter, anyone?

Nick Brooke:
>Nice parallel between Cwim and the Gold Wheel Dancers, BTW: now we
>have to work out who it was that "merged" the Giant Baby and his
>"pilot" into this monstrous chaotic form...

Damn, I can't believe I didn't make the connection, since I suggested
both of the components (my Cwim suggestion came at about the same time as
Nick's). Yes, this is too close a parallel not to be true, and another
good reason for the sunken Cradle at the Sunstop.

And as to the source of their merger, really, any major chaotic force
would work. And since chaos was probably stronger in Prax in the Dawn
Ages (as opposed to the Wastes, where it has always been strong), there
are a lot of possibilities. Perhaps the GWD sought aid for its charge at
a local oasis, and met Thed instead? Cwim is said to be the child of
Thed, after all.

David Cake
>According to the RQ Rules, its more like Gods have hordes of Spell
>spirits that attend them and flow from them, that can be summoned by the
>Spell Teaching magic. Of course, many religions will consider these
>spirits to be small parts of the god that flow to his worshippers.
>might not.

As this is more a game mechanic than a Gloranthan description, I don't
think it is something we have to hold to. My personal belief about Divine
cults granting "Spirit Magic" is that they don't -- they teach minor
Blessings to their cultists, which work for them as well as their Divine
Magic does. None of this POWx5 stuff, I give them a straight 95% chance
of success, like Divine Magic. For simplicity's sake, we can use
identical spell descriptions and mechanics to describe a Spirit
Spell-learned Bladesharp and the Bless Sword spell the Humakti Sword
teaches his initiates.

I think that what RQ describes as "Spriti Magic" is actually a more
general Common Magic, which serves as the basis of Low Sorcery and other
less powerful magic systems. It is a magic based in the difference
between animals and humans, and gods. All "Form Rune" creatures have the
capability to use this magic, and the exact religious background they
have determines how this manifests itself. If their religious background
is Malkioni, this is expressed primarily as Low Sorcery. Which must be
learned as a Skill, used to cast any of the specific spells known.

Mixing occurs when the individual comes from a mixed religious tradition
- -- the Orlanthi have both strong shamanic and strong Divine backgrounds,
and so they are familiar with both forms, and can even learn both at the
same time! but, when a Humakti learns Disrupt from a shaman, he is stuck
at POWx5%, because he expects that the spirit's magic is not as powerful
as the god's.

I like this because it leads to peasants in the West with a Low Sorcery
skill of 25% sneaking into the woods to learn Bladesharp/Plowsharp from a
heathen shaman at POWx5%, probably better than 25%. Just don't let the
priest catch you using this heathen magic, and make sure to confess
before you die. :)

Weekly Digest
I would prefer that articles NOT be posted directly to the Weekly -- the
point of the Weekly, as I understand it, is to offer an alternative forum
for people to "get the good stuff" out of the Digest (not that the
discussion is bad, of course, it's just a phrase). Posting directly to
the Weekly would mean that people who read the daily Digest would have to
closely watch the Weekly for new material they have never read.

Also, I don't know what the legalities or general etiquettes are, but I
personally think that articles from the Digest should not be placed on
Web Pages without permission of the poster. Archiving them with a link is
cool, but excerpting stuff is not cool, IMO. Not that this is what people
are suggesting, it's just that the mention of permission by Doyle got me

>OTOH, he [Lightfore] is the 'timekeeper', which could well suggest
>his period was the same pre-Darkness as it is in present times.

Well, Greg's current idea is that Lokarnos has a different period now
than he did before the Second Age. Per discussions with him, in The Book
of Drastic Resolutions: Volume Prax I reported that Lokarnos originally
had a period of 14 days -- 7 in the sky, 7 in the Underworld, making him
the marker of the 7-day Theyalan week.

Towards the end of the Second Age (in 952) he began to slow, probably as
a result of EWF tampering. Eventually, his speed stabalized again (in
1042), at its current and much-longer period. Finally, in 1051 he leaped
across the sky at one point, but then continued on with his current
speed. This last was probably not caused by the EWF.

This could all change, but Greg seems to really want Lokarnos to be the
orignal Timekeeper in the sense that his movement created the most common

Based upon this, my belief is that the Doraddi 6-day week is based upon
the movements of the Twinstars, which have a six-day period (3 in the
sky, 3 in the Underworld).

Stephen Martin
- -----------------------------------------------
The Book of Drastic Resolutions

You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:06:56 EEST