Various Old West continued

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Fri 13 Feb 1998 - 00:19:00 EET

Peter Metcalfe:

Fall of the Silver Empire:
>And what is happening in between the times that the Empire fell and
>the PoPI starts? I find it difficult to believe that hearing news
>of the Empire's destruction, that the various lords of Fronela would
>wait 45 years before making power grabs. Even the Tarshites didn't
>wait that long!

But you have to admit that 45 years of war for power is not that unusual. I
just need to look at the history of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation...

>>>And IMO this would be a good description of Malkioni Fronela in the
>>>years 385 to 650 ST (when Akem dissolves and Pomons joins Loskalm).
>>>Of course there were quite a few nasty wars along the way.

>>I'd start this already around 350 if that's the time the Silver Empire
>>faltered, otherwise we seem to agree. (!!!)

>No mention of this in the Broken Council Guidebook.

Unsurprisingly, after all Fronela offers lots of trouble through the Tawari
and other beast-related barbarians (of similar sophistication as the
Heortlings, from the looks of Entekosiad's Bisos epic).

>the mention of Fronelan Wizards combatting some powerful heathen
>god during the Sunstop seems to indicate that Malkioni Fronela
>was unified at that time.

Or a joint effort to fight the heathen danger. I doubt very strongly that
the Syndics Snodal gathered around himself to bring the Ban about came from
a monolithic Fronela either. The efforts are comparable...

>Which would make the Silver Empire still extant.

If you want it to be.

Origins of Spoken Auld Wyrmish
I pointed out that the Jrusteli seemed to have had some sort of
>creative HQ before
>573 ST (and not after the conquest of the Dark Empire as I suggested)
>because they were able to raid the cult of Drolgard.]

Peter gives a very plausible scenario for interaction between close Jrusteli
allies in Slontos and a possible alliance of Drolgard with the dragonewts of

>The Jrusteli, pleased as punch, then sail to Nochet where they know
>there is a sizable 'newt population nearby. They sell their secrets
>for a tidy sum to the people of Dragon Pass who have been unable to
>speak to Dragonewts before this (which rules out a Dragon Pass origin
>for Drolgard IMO).

And they expected to profit from the unrest usually following such drastic
changes, by distracting and weakening the Only Old One.

>>But I think I forgot the obvious way how Arkati secrets could have come
>>to Jrustela: there were Arkati (missionaries or settlers) on Jrustela
>>after Arkat's return.

>How would they get from Ralios to Jrustela? The Seshnegi are hostile
>to Arkat and the Slontans remember (whether they were Orlanthi or
>Malkion) that Arkat betrayed them to become a Troll.

So do the Ralians. The very fact that the Seshnegi and Loskalmi found it
necessary to hold a council against the Stygian creed in 454 shows that this
creed had found its way into their territory. And, since the Stygians were
suppressed in Gerlant's territory afterwards, couldn't some of them have
taken refuge in the Jrusteli colonies rather than among Ralian foreigners?

Kingdom of Tanisor
>>>Tanisor and Dorastor lie on opposite sides of Dorastor. In
>>>between is the Dari Alliance which is not part of the Empire
>>>of Light. Therefore for the Dorastans to try and set up a
>>>'colony' in Tanisor is bound to run into problems with the Dari

>>And lo - the Dari people were quick to join forces with Arkat when he
>>had overrun Tanisor.

>No they didn't. Only Maklamann, who was prominent in the Dari Alliance:

: 'defied his cult to accompany Arkat through the epic of
: the Chaos Wars. Cursed by his own cult hierarchy and
: hunted by Gbaji's evil assasins, he remained faithful to
: Arkat always.'
: ToTRM# p25

>From the defiance of the cult, it seems to me that Maklamann was
>on his own when he fought for Arkat. A more impartial description
>may be traitor...

Maklamann was king of the Korioni. His defiance of the cult may well have
been a defiance against the priests, who were the real power among late 1st
Age Orlanthi, be they Heortlings, Dorastans, or Enerali.

Maklamann defied his priesthood, and with the aid of Arkat took over the
rule from the priests. He began the tradition of powerful, yet civilised
kings able to command the priesthood which Alakoring brought to Peloria and
Maniria in the late 2nd Age. (The less civilised Orlanthi - Bemuri,

Wenelians, Brolians, Tawari - had no rule of the priesthood for lack of
communication between the fractioned tribes and clans, IMO.)

>Likewise the Dorastor Book says that when Arkat invaded the Dari
>Alliance, they called from help from Dorastor who sent them Derinogus
>Pistol and some troops to help.

To me, this looks like the priests of the Dari called for help, whereas
Maklamann and his army supported Arkat. The East Ralians remained stout
supporters of Nysalor and enemies of Arkat or the Stygian Empire (see the
upcoming Naskorion description in Tradetalk, when it finally will be
available, for the lingering conflicts between the East Ralians and the

>>>The Vampire Kings were created by the fear of Arkat IMO.

>>To me this sounds more like fear of death than fear of Arkat. Arkat may
>>well have taken the Wakboth role from the Vivamort myth wrt the
>>Tanisoran kings...

>Vivamort was not afraid of death

Seems I have to reread the Vivamort myth.

>but something else. And that
>something else was probably what Arkat was capable of.


Serpent Kings and Hrelar Amali
>>The Dangan confederacy collapsed around 160 ST, leaving ample room for
>>Seshnegi entrepeneurs to establish themselves there only to be thrown
>>out by the Dari confederation.

>Surprisingly no mention of this is made in the Broken Council

Nor is anything mentioned about the downfall of King Dan's realm.

>>>So IMO the Seshnegi occupied Hrelar Amali sometime during the first
>>>century which removes your objection about the weak government of the late
>>>Serpent Kings.

>>My objection to this first century date comes from their problems with
>>the Pendali/Basmoli who were not overcome before 105 ST (when some still
>>remained in Arolanit, but the peninsula proper had been conquered). Even
>>after that time, the modern duchy of Nolos was not yet part of Seshnela,
>>but was inhabited by some Tanier valley people (possibly Enerali or
>>Basmoli, or another "Hsunchen" people lost in the mists of time because
>>they took civilisation too serious before the Seshnegi recorded their
>>bestial origins).

>One can expand into Safelster without bothering to subdue Arolanit
>or Nolos. This appears to be the path of expansion favoured by
>King Guilmarn and King Ulianus III (although he may have controlled

One can only expand when one is secure in one's position. The Pendali threat
enfolded the Seshnegi holdings (for reference, use the map of 2nd Age
Seshnela on p.14 of the Sog City Conference Guide):

Neleoswal and Frowal as their original holdings, Orphalland fell last in
138, Rolfasland as early as 36. Ailor was known as Avalalsland in the first
Age, and included much of Jorestl's Forest, and before the Dawn also the
original landgrant of Froalar around Frowal - this kingdom voluntarily
joined the Kingdom of Seshnela around 60 ST. Jorilland occupied the western
half of the Duchy of Nolos, whereas Kaanilland occupied the land north of
Nolos and east of the river of Laurmal; there was no middle way through
these kingdoms into the Tanier Valley.

My source may well be perfectly outdated, but the outlined timeline fits
quite well into the picture presented in published sources, so I see no need
to abandon it.

>>The NHW still may have allowed "temples" where specialized wizards had
>>better chances to coerce appropriate otherworld beings.

>In which case they would have torn down the Temples to Flamal and
>Xentha there. But they simply added Temples to Orlanth and Magasta

Why would anyone tear down a temple to Flamal, which can be exploited for
fertility magics, or a temple to Xentha with whose magics the powers of
Yelm/Ehilm can be countered (powers quite often commanded by wizards,
possibly including enemy wizards)?

David Cake chimed in:

> The idea that Western heroquesters try not to name their opponents
>originates with Nick Brooke, and he was quite explicit that this approach
>developed as a response to God Learning. Before that point, the demonology
>comparison (compendious tomes of names and properties of the bad guys, etc)
>was more normal.

This approach may as well be a reaction to the concourse with demons
(deities) the Jrusteli inherited from the Arkati. Sort of a return to the
Return of Rightness which gave the early Jrusteli crusaders their moral
superiority over the Arkati.

> The intent is that modern western HGing takes on a rather Arthurian
>model, full of mysterious women at forks in the road, strange beasts,
>mysterious castles ruled by knight referred to only by their appearance
>(the Red Knight), etc.

And why is this necessarily a post-God Learner attitude only?


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