From: Peter Metcalfe (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Mon 16 Feb 1998 - 07:22:12 EET
[I'm setting aside the topic of Hrelar Amali in light of Shannon's post]
>>But [the Galanini] were a seperate state, learned from the Malkioni and
>>other people as well as the Theyalans and reckoned by most people to be
>>completely distinct from the Theyalans.
>They were a separate state. So was the Dara Happan Empire.
Look at the Fortunate Succession Map. Dara Happa and the lands of
the High Council of Genertela are seperated by dashed lines. The
Kingdom of the Beasts and the Dari Alliance are seperated by bold
lines. The map is not perfect as Greg said it doesn't show the
Bisosae of Vangstal and IMO it doesn't show the Vustrians and the
>They weren't really completely distinct from the Theyalans - nor were the
>other beast totem Orlanthi of East Ralios.
They were distinct. The Galanini worshipped Humath instead of Orlanth
for a start. And the other 'beast totem Orlanthi' were still hsunchen
at the end of the first age.
>: *The Ralians that thought is not the only reality; that their
>: Laws were not Eternal Truths; and that instinct was neither
>: good or evil.'
>: Fortunate Succession p78.
>Which Ralians? The Kivitti and Vustrians, the Bemuri and other East Ralians,
>or the Korioni and Utoni? What about the Fornoari?
IMO The lowlander Enerali which would be the Korioni, Utoni and the
>TFS is a Dara Happan
>document and knows about as much about Ralian affairs as KoS.
If you had looked at the source of the article, you will find that it
is a Greg-objective article. Likewise Dorastor LoD claims that:
'Around 350, the Dari Alliance [actually the sons of Dari
- PHM] rose to strength in the centre of Ralios. This
nation used many secrets from the distant Second Council,
and though no ally to Dorastor, the Alliance was at least
a foe to the hill barbarians.
>>The people of Galin are Malkioni first and not Theyalan. To them,
>>the Theyalans are grubby little savages who live in the wop-wops
>>over in the east.
>And the Dara Happans are pompous twits without any real culture living in
>false solar splendour beyond the mountains. What, they've been conquered by
>the Camelians? Serves 'em right.
And how is this supposed to prove anything with respect to the level
of Theyalan culture in modern day Safelster?
>I doubt that the people of Galin realize how much of their culture is God
>Learner, and how much is Theyalan (2nd Council) influenced. IMO most of
>Ralian henotheism has become a blend of Malkioni and Theyalan religion, with
>the Old Beast religion a defeated third.
The Dari Alliance did not worship Orlanth so I fail to see how
they could have been theyalanized. I do acknowledge some influence
from the Council (along the lines of hellenistic influences and
all that) but IMO the native Enerali tradition is far more prominent
in Safelster than you posit and any orlanthi traditions far weaker.
The Old Beast religion are the remants of the Ralian Hsunchen and not
the Enerali lowlanders.
>>Their major cultural traditions are derived
>>from the Malkioni, Arkat and their ancient horse-riding traditions.
>The ancient horse riding traditions are preserved about as much in urban
>Galin as the bison-riding traditions are preserved by the Assiday in Darleep
>in Dara Happa.
The Safelstrans have cavalry in their armies and so the Galanini
traditions would be strong in the Safelstran Knighthood. I'm not
saying that they are pagans but their ideas of chivalry stem from
ancient galanini customs and not the fops on the castle coast. That
is one of many areas in which Galalini customs would be visible
>>The Dari Alliance was a seperate state from the Empire of Light. So
>>why would Maklaman need to make Humath semi-seperate from Lokaymadon's
>>Cult? Secondly the Ralians had storm gods long before they came into
>>contact with the World Council.
>And the Vustrians and Bemuri had nothing better to do than to integrate
>their storm believes with the Theyalan Storm Brothers.
And Maklamann is not a Vustrian or a Bemuri so the point of this digression
is? We are talking about the Dari Alliance made of Lowlander Enerali.
>This makes the Korioni homelands the part of Safelster where Arkat summoned
>support from the rural population, and where he found natural allies against
>Telmoria and Vesmonstran.
Wrong. Vustria is much closer and was full of people who despised
>>Interesting. Methods for impeachment of an unruly king or chief
>>are known throughout glorantha and the real world.
>None of these require a separating from subject kin on behalf of the king.
Rubbish. What do you think outlawry or ostracism was?
>Face it: Maklamann became an ally of Arkat, and so did many neighbours of
>Telmoria and Vesmonstran, who happen to live in Korioni lands.
It says no such thing. All it says is there was a rebellion in the
countryside and barbarians (IMO Vustrians) invaded from the hills.
The rural rebellion could have happened anywhere within modern
Safelster and probably crossed tribal boundaries (ie it could have
been the rural Utoni who revolted). You should be aware that your
interpolations are not the only possible ones.
>Maklamann seems to have intended to make the Dari lands more independent
>from the 2nd Council / Bright Empire, and seeing the lack of Seshnegi
>support Arkat had he seems to have seen his chance for a land of Ralios
>independent from the Council.
The Dari Alliance was independant of the Empire of Light from Day
One! They called upon the Empire of Light because they were
invaded by Arkat. Maklamann is siding with the _enemy_.
>>The whole state was allied to the Empire of Light. This seperate
>>'priesthood' is your invention following an parallel in Orlanthi
>>culture which I believe is unnecessary as the Galalinae are not
>>and never have been Orlanthi.
>Neither are / have been the people of Worian in Carmania?
What has Worion to do with all this? Do they have priest/lord
divisions? If you are referring to KoS, then it refers to an
Orlanthi and not that Orlanth is the major god of the Woriani.
IMO Karsten Fardrossen is a Brolian immigrant into Worion (which
is acknowleged by KoS which says that he has kin there).
>>>Yes. Now, let's have a look at the sources. CoT tells us that "Many tribes
>>>of heathens followed too, despite their dislike of Malkioni monotheism."
>>But it applies to the people of Vustria, not East Ralios.
>Vustria, and Korion. I did not want to imply that East Ralians
>(Bemuri-descended Orlanthi) followed, or fought for, Arkat.
It does not imply Korion. Heathens implies that they did not
accept the Invisible God (or whatever they called it in those
days). IMO the Ralians assimilated the Malkioni faith into
their native traditions (the Lithuanians also did this despite
pressure from the Teutonic Knights). Thus the lowlanders would
not have a _religious_ reason to dislike Arkat. But IMO the
>>very _next_ sentence goes: 'One by one the strongholds fell until
>>the forces were concentrated in the eastern part of Ralios, especially
>>the City of Wolves and the fortress of Kartolin'.
>The City of Wolves is not exactly in the eastern part of Ralios. To be more
>exact, Telmoria is in northern Ralios, below the High Llama Pass, and that's
>where their city would have been. Upper Tanier Valley.
We don't know that. The City of Wolves could have been a Telmori enclave
in Eastern Ralios. Lest you scoff, look at the Old Wolf Fort in Dorastor
(which was long built before the Nangtali Telmori came to Dorastor). In
addition, the Telmori of Telmoria were not Werewolves but rather non-aligned
Pure Ones who did not follow Nysalor.
>>>Dorastor tells us that the city defenses held briefly, while the rural
>>>population and the hill-people rose "in rebellion". Cities = centres
>>>controlled by the priesthood...
>>Cities = centres controlled by the priesthood is your interpolation
>>and unjustified IMO. Modern Sartarite Cities are controlled by Kings
>>and chiefs and not Priests for example.
>Modern Sartarite cities are hardly representative for anything except King
>Sartar's policy to forcefully unite separate small Alakoringite tribes in
>the Quivini hills by providing Heortland-style fortifications for them to
And neither is your model of priestly controlled cities representative
of the Galanini. I'm pointing out a counter-example to show that you
cannot automatically assume that the Ralian Cities were controlled by
priests. They were a completely different people.
- --Peter Metcalfe
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #425
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