F*** all of the Silver Empire

From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@toppoint.de)
Date: Wed 18 Feb 1998 - 06:57:00 EET

I said:
>>I guess what ails me is that if the Brithini land mere moments after having
>>beaten back a Seshnegi attack on their island, they aren't very likely to
>>distinguish between Seshnegi, allies to the Bright Empire, or whatever else
>>attacks them (like the trolls in the bit of the Arkat Saga Greg read at
>>RQ-Con #1).

Peter Metcalfe
>Which is why Arkat 'was instrumental in gaining aid from the Seshnegi
>in the war' against Tanisor (Glorantha Book p18) IMO. The Brithini
>believed that Seshnegi wouldn't aid them since they had tried to invade
>Brithos not so long ago. Arkat challenged this and found that the
>Seshnegi were all too willing to help against the Vampire Kings.

Possible. This still does not rule out any earlier time (the 385 "evidence"
is very slim, after all).

>Besides, it isn't 'mere moments' (except from a Brithini PoV)

Exactly. 15 years, or up to 45 years as I would prefer.

>>The Brithini army landing in Seshnela included a fair number of youngster
>>Horali-in-training (gleaned from RQ-Con 1) of about 80 years.

>Arkat was born about 375 ST (calculated from Cults of Terror which says
>that his life was 75 years of struggle against Gbaji) which would have
>made him 25 years old when he landed in Arolanit.

Nice calculation, but since Gbaji (or rather Nysalor) lived for exactly 75
years, Arkat could hardly have fought him any longer. This doesn't say how
many years of his life he spent earlier, and Greg's reading at RQ-COn 1 gave
the age of 80 for a fairly early part of the Brithini expedition force's
struggles (their first encounter with trolls).

>>Unless the Brithini have effective means of prediction (then why would they
>>have had to beat back the attack at all, rather than cause Seshnela to
>>falter before setting sail), it appears to me that this breeding of new
>>Horali would have been done in reaction to an outside threat. Like the
>>Seshnegi enterprise which failed barely on the shores of the island.

>I do believe Zzabur to be capable of that sort of prediction (he did
>after all predict the Dawn, write maps of the future and all that).

Or rather, he is powerful enough to put down a plan, and then execute it.

>IMO the Seshnegi fleet was sunk by Zzabur summoning a kamikaze or

A Seshnegi fleet, while the Waertagi ruled the waves... I never really got
over this. The orthodox assumption would be that the Seshnegi hired a
Waertagi fleet to ferry them over.

>>Now, around 400 S.T., the Brithini face another attempt of the continental
>>people to take over their island, this time through missionaries (and
>>possibly magical warfare). The Brithini decide to send their valuable new
>>army against this new threat, even though a greater part of it had not yet
>>finished their training.

>But they have already used the army to clear it from the Brithini

: 'Later, in his youth, he saw the dark side of the foreign
: cult Gbaji, 'the Deceiver.' Because of this Arkat fought
: well on his island and helped drive the vile religion from
: he cities.'
: CoT p17

Horali training seems to be very thorough, but then a trainee who has
finished his terms is expected to take on rune level mortals with ease.

I wonder who they fought when clearing the enemy creed from Brithini cities.
Enraged Dronars? Deceived Talars? Or serious resistance by aberrant Horali
and Zzaburi?

>>If this gut feeling is correct, the Silver Empire campaign would date back
>>as far as 320 ST. In my timelines, not unlikely either.

>The Brithini are having babies is a guard against _future_ troubles.

I don't really think that the Brithini having babies is a guarding action,
rather a preparation for aggression. For what it's worth, the 320 hatching
could have been in reaction to the True Hrestol Way gaining power over the
wizards on the continent, only 120 years delayed.

>I presume that Zzabur was aware that something was going to happen
>circa 375 ST.

A great feat, after all the main events started around 350 with the
discovery of the Pseudocosmic Egg. Unless he planted it there.

>>Whether in 320 ST or 360 ST, I feel that 375 ST or later for the fall of the
>>Seshnegi empire would be too late.

>I'm not grokking your line of argument here. If I understand things
>correctly, you are arguing that a threat must have been apparent
>to Zzabur for the Brithini to start having babies.

A threat, yes. Not necessarily the one they eventually faced.

>Presumably what you then see wrong with the 385 ST fall is that the
>Seshnegi invasion would be too long after the apparent tensions between
>the Seshnegi and the Brithini in 320 ST? To wit, the Seshnegi would
>have attacked much earlier after relations worsened?

The Seshnegi attack may have been what convinced Zzabur that immediate
action had to be taken, i.e. a new generation of warriors had to be bred.

>If that is what you think is wrong (and feel free to twit me if I'm
>wrong), then I do not believe that the Brithini decided to make Horali
>like that. IMO they were aware for a long time that worse times were

>They decided to make babies to meet this threat. But they
>did not _know_ the exact shape and nature of the threat. And when it
>was revealed, it resulted in civil war which effectively negated their
>lengthy preparations.

Who were their civic opponents? Did they have the full range of Talars,
Zzaburs, Horali, and Dronars, or did their opponents use the Spell Forbidden
by Uvostio (or whoever)?

>But the Brithini had serious domestic problems at home. Since Arkat
>was turned over to the Brithini at the age of 13 and was fighting
>them in his youth, that must mean that there were missionaries in
>Brithos after 388 ST.

Arkat's youth remains to be dated, IMO, after all we are talking Brithini here.

Yes, there must have been some missionaries in Brithos, at latest around 380
ST, and they do seem to have had some impact. Judging Theyalan missionary
procedure, I suppose that there had been Theyalan aldryami already before
either Arkat or Nysalor were conceived.

>How long this war lasted is unknown but the
>impact must have been considerable.

>Whereas if the Silver Empire assault was before the Sunstop, one
>wonders why the Brithini did not attack there and then after the
>fall of the Silver Empire instead of waiting until 400 ST?

Because the Brithini are a bit lost in time. From their POV, to breed kids
to gain the manpower would be an immediate action - comparable to an
Orlanthi chief ordering spearheads and shafts to be made before a campaign.

>The actual dichotomy in Seshnela was between linealists and idealists
>as per the Glorantha Book.

Good point. So how close to the current Loskalm model were the idealists?

>The Wizards (I feel the term also includes
>the Old Malkioni) mentioned in Cults of Terror are the people of
>Arolanit, Brithos and Sog City IMO.

As I read CoT, the wizards had been present on the continent for quite a
while. No problem to you, because:

>I believe Arolanit was originally populated by Old Malkioni who did
>not accept the Hrestoli relevations (mainly because they saw what the
>rotter did to Seshnela and Brithos and knew that he was judge of the

Unless there was a third Malkioni colony further north on the Neleomi shore,
Arolanit was Pendali or Fornoari territory at the Dawn. The map in Uz Lore
p.13 seems to support this view. After the end of the Serpent King dynasty,
such a group might have crystallized there around figures like Akgarbash of

>The Brithini have conquered the place in the Chaos Wars

Do you mean against Gbaji, or during the Greater Darkness?

>>The Brithini had sent an army to liberate Arolanit (why just Arolanit?) and
>>to destroy the false messengers (from the Bright Empire) for good. They
>>succeeded in Arolanit, but failed against Tanisor.

>I presume the landing was in Arolanit because that was the most
>convenient place for a landing against Tanisor

Probably. A Locical place.

>and contained a
>population that could presume to be friendly towards Brithos.

Why would this part of the former Silver Empire be more friendly? Exile is
dangerous to the Brithini, it seems, they get strange notions.

>are stated to have landed to punish Tanisor for serious (although
>unspecified trangressions). Seshnela was presumed hostile for daring
>to invade Brithos and so no landing was attempted there.

Laurmal is right next to Frowal, in the heart of Malkioni Seshnela.

>>Why did the Brithini aid Arkat's
>>crusade? Why had they remained in Seshnela, and not returned to Brithos?

>Because they wanted to get rid of Gbaji?

One possibility.

>>(Overpopulation due to the breeding program? Brithos might well have been
>>taxed to support all these people.)

>Arolanit is actually underpopulated and thus I believe that Brithos
>could have easily sustained a higher level of population indefinitely.

Remember, though, that the Brithini have a different interpretation of

>>CoT may be long outdated, but it suggests a conflict between the knights of
>>Hrestol and the wizard adherents to an older way. These wizards seem to have
>>been allies of Brithos.

>Ah, but it doesn't say the Wizards are Seshnegi.

True. The context makes them some sort of Malkioni, but Brithini or
Brithini-like people might qualify.


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