From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Thu 19 Feb 1998 - 00:33:00 EET

"Fightin' Joe" here for another bout with "Killer-Kiwi"...
>>>Arkat was born about 375 ST (calculated from Cults of Terror which says
>>>that his life was 75 years of struggle against Gbaji) which would have
>>>made him 25 years old when he landed in Arolanit.

>>Nice calculation, but since Gbaji (or rather Nysalor) lived for exactly 75
>>years, Arkat could hardly have fought him any longer.

>For this to be true, the doctrines would have to be instanteously
>teleported to Brithos, which I doubt. Besides Cults of Terror then
>goes on to say 'There he cleared a simple farmstead and kept the area
>around it under his watchful eye for his other 75 years'. Ergo Arkat
>was born at the same time as Nysalor and struggled against Gbaji all
>his life.

That CV would assume that Arkat's father came to Brithos the year before the
Sunstop, or that he begat Arkat during the Sunstop, and that Arkat was born
before the Sunstop ended. (Sandy once said that entire generations may have
passed away during the Sunstop; surely a heroic pregnancy could be fitted in.)

However, if Arkat was given to the Horali college at age 13, he must have
been full-grown by that time, or he wouldn't have fit physically with the
other Horali.

>Arkat OTOH was renowed for his skill in weapons. CoT calls him 'a
>prodigy in combat' (p17) whereas the Glorantha Book says 'He advanced
>quickly, even among the keen competition of the specialized warriors'
>(p18). So I don't think he was 80 circa 400 ST.

I can agree that he may have lied about his age to join the invasion force
(not unheard of). I'm fairly sure that the other trainee Horali would have
been that old.

>[On predictive capabilities]
>Surely with all that power, surely he can be allowed a itsy little
>bitsy of prophecy?

Prophecy, yes, but none of the kind "55 years onward, in the year 375, on
noon of, the sun will stop in the sky."

Rather: "The mortals will destroy their lands through superstition and
hubris, and another Age of the World will begin."

Maybe a warning wrt a danger to Brithos.

BUT: would you increase the number of fighters if you knew that there would
be a rebellion including your fighters soon?

>>I don't really think that the Brithini having babies is a guarding action,
>>rather a preparation for aggression. For what it's worth, the 320 hatching
>>could have been in reaction to the True Hrestol Way gaining power over the
>>wizards on the continent, only 120 years delayed.

>I strongly doubt that the Brithini actually contemplate aggression
>given their fear of death.

There are two ways to fight a war: let the enemy come and bring destruction
to your lands, or go to the enemy and let the destruction happen to his land.

>And making babies when a threat becomes
>apparent is a foolhardy action as the threat could easily launch
>an invasion on Brithos before their army has a chance to mature.

But this is what you propose happened with the Bright Empire's missionaries.

>It behoves the Brithini to be aware as much as possible about any
>grave dangers in the future so that they can prepare.

Just Glorantha doesn't really work that way. The best they can do is prepare
a new army to deal with the Hero Wars prophecies they have heard about.

>After all, the Brithini of Arolanit are not having babies right now
>yet they are going to be involved in some battles in Seshnela.

Aren't they? That Handran merchant who complained about the lack of children
(Seshnela, Arolanit) may simply have not seen the places where the children
were brought up. IMO the shock of the Opening would have caused Talar
Malaskan Philippe to order another breed of Brithini to deal aggressively
with the troubles to come.

(And remember the wild theories we talked about in Schleswig, with the
not-quite Brithini peasants and their rejuvenation magics...)

>The Pseudocosmic Egg was discovered in 307 ST and revealed in 350 ST.

Revealed in 350. That would be the most likely moment even Zzabur could have
learned about it.

>There were also _other_ events of cosmic significance starting to
>take place (Heathen God,

The Heathen God event in Fronela sounds to me like one of many such events.
It is the temporal coincidence which makes it somewhat special. Adventurous
sages might even blame the Fronela wizards to have marred the perfection of
Osentalka by transmuting that god into Gbaji...

>Garanian's Quest,

Garanian Aurochs?

>Dragon Emperor studying
>rune, disease in Pamaltela etc) which would have an impact and which
>Zzabur would have become aware off IMO.

Zzabur the All-Knowing? I don't really think that his knowledge can be that
universal. He may have his spies (Yingar the Messenger?), but I doubt that
even the Sorcerer Supreme's crystal ball can penetrate all secrets of
Glorantha - and all these doom-bringing events were wrought with secrecy
about the actual going-ons.

>>The Seshnegi attack may have been what convinced Zzabur that immediate
>>action had to be taken, i.e. a new generation of warriors had to be bred.

>I don't think this is so since because it failed and the Silver
>Empire fell apart. Zzabur could pick up the pieces by sending
>Brithini Diplomats in. He would hardly need to raise a giant
>army for conquest as this is the last resort among the Brithini.

That's where we disagree. Zzabur prepared an army to unleash a "preemptive
strike" against a weakened foe, to end the threat for good, IMO.

>>>But the Brithini had serious domestic problems at home. Since Arkat
>>>was turned over to the Brithini at the age of 13 and was fighting
>>>them in his youth, that must mean that there were missionaries in
>>>Brithos after 388 ST.

>>Arkat's youth remains to be dated, IMO, after all we are talking Brithini

>But the Brithini grow up normally and do not age. I find it
>difficult to credit that the Brithini would treat someone
>50 years old as youthful or immature.

Think about Tolkien elves. Yes, the Brithini are IMO the equivalent to
Tolkien's Noldor - immortal, superhuman, and annoying.

>>Judging Theyalan missionary
>>procedure, I suppose that there had been Theyalan aldryami already before
>>either Arkat or Nysalor were conceived.

>Theyalan Aldryami?!? Please clarify!

Theyalan missionaries included members of all councilic races (probably
excepting Gold Wheel Dancers).

We know that trolls escorted human missionaries in northern Peloria. We know
that ideas were exchanged between the different races of the Council.

When I say "Theyalan aldryami" I mean Awakeners who bring the Lightbringer
new mode of accessing the Divine to the aldryami as well.

I am aware that the aldryami don't worship deities the same mode the humans
do, but they do have a set of deities outside of the pure cycle of Aldrya,
predominantly the sun deities (aka Yelm and Yelmalio), the Earth Defenders
(Babeester, Arran), the Healer (Arroin). Especially the aldryami versions of
Yelmalio and Arroin give account of survival to unity, and the return of
Yelm is part of the Lightbringers' message, and will have carried their

IMO there was a distribution of this knowledge through the Aldryami forests.
The "Awakening" of the forests won't have been depending on the arrival of
Awakeners bringing the Lightbringers' news from Dragon Pass - the presence
of the sun in the sky would have done much of this on its own, and the
plants and forests would have taken to (normal) growth again. However, the
control of the forests through brown elves seems to have been started in
large scale only when kicked by the emissaries from the Unity Council.

>>>one wonders why the Brithini did not attack there and then after the
>>>fall of the Silver Empire instead of waiting until 400 ST?

>>Because the Brithini are a bit lost in time. From their POV, to breed kids
>>to gain the manpower would be an immediate action - comparable to an
>>Orlanthi chief ordering spearheads and shafts to be made before a campaign.

>IMO the Brithini are still normal people even if they are dull and

IMO the Brithini are perfectionists out of their fear of death. While their
military expeditions seem to perform Resurrections of lost personnel
routinely and physical death is not immediately annihilation of the subject,
even taking the wrong decisions on minor matters furthers the deterioration
of one's existence.

>Zzabur, for example, tried to capitalize on a Talar's
>unexpected death to try to be crowned Talar of Brithos. They have
>a normal sense of time and can grow bored and/or impatient.

I'm not certain about that. Zzabur's coup happened within a few years since
the Dawn, when the Brithini had not yet developed a sense of the new thing
called Time. They are slow learners IMO, because changes are anathema to them.

>The ancient idealists would have considered the Loskalmi to have
>bats in the belfry (or haben ein vogel).

As do most modern Malkioni...

>I think most Brithini Colonies took the form of scattered villages
>and towns along the coast with the lands of Akem and Seshnela
>representing more developed territories.

Why would the Brithini (or unsolaced Malkioni) live in such undefensible
positions and risk their precious lives?

>What evidence do you have Akgarbash of Laurmal's existance in the
>first age? Anyhow Laurmal isn't part of Arolanit.

Well, if he is from the city of Laurmal, he was around before 1049, probably
for some time. There aren't many non-Brithini (or other immortal races)
around from that period, the only individual I can think of offhand is that
shamaness head-hunter who helped finish off the God Learners in East Ralios.

>I think the Brithini were aware that the people of Arolanit
>were different from the Seshnegi and more sympathetic towards
>the Brithini.

If there were people descended from Brithos who lived there. When did they
settle there in your version? Did they arrange with the heathen natives?

>I think you are confusing Laurmal with Laufol.

Got me there. That's from arguing without the sources...


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