I'll take a break

From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 19 Feb 1998 - 20:30:00 EET

Peter Metcalfe and I are stuck in the usual deadlock. I'll address only the
most recent disagreements, then close this bout.

>Did he? I'm not convinced that the Stygians worshipped Ehilm
>seeing that Arkat slaughtered the Yelornans.

Did the Yelornans worship Ehilm?

Did Arkat refrain from slaughtering other Enerali? If the Yelornans insisted
on fighting Arkat, he would have fought them until they stopped (presumably
dead). If they had a doctrine he coudn't accept, he wouldn't have let them

Did he destroy them to the last baby girl?

>I dislike the cookie-cutter model of pro-arkati rurals against
>pro-nysaloran cities presented here. This presumes that the
>Enerali have somehow acquired marxist class-conciousness.

The situation is bound to have been more complex, but is I included
qualifiers everywhere, I'd end up with a manifest like those in Life of Brian.

>And I fail to see why the rurals should have 'some Theyalan
>traits'. Perhaps you could elucidate?

I guess that's useless. They had no specific Heortling traits, or I would
have said Heortling.

They worshipped their gods in the manner taught by the Theyalan
missionaries. So did the urban populace, only more through the Bright Empire
type channels than the rurals, because of the higher level of organisation
you find in cities. After all, the first exposure of the Ralians came
through the Kethaelan and Manirian Council missionaries - the one to leave
marks even in backwater rural communities. The later exposure would have
radiated from the cities, since the Dorastans (not exactly Heortlings IMO)
already believed in a pyramid structure.

>>I suppose the Dari mercenaries would have taken some part in these

>That's true but are who are the Dari most likely to be fighting for?

The winning side, as most mercenaries prefer to do.

>>Theyalan meaning
>>"from the Dawn Council", not "Orlanthi" or even "Heortling"

>You are wrong in your use of Theyalan, both in meaning and application.

Not at all. I would have said Heortling or Orlanthi if I meant those. Give
me a good one word adjective for members of the culture the Unity Council
created at the Dawn, and I'll use that, otherwise that's "Theyalan".

Human Theyalan culture includes Esrolia (not any more Heortling), Aramites,
Islanders, and Caladrans. To call all of these "Orlanthi" is more misleading
than to call them Dawn People...

>'Theyalan' has consistently been used to refer to the ancient heortling
>culture in whatever sources we have whether in KoS or G:CotHW.

Check it, please. Especially Genertela Book p.45 (Culture) and Players Book
p.15 which applies "Orlanthi" to Esrolia and Caladraland. Not all Theyalans
are Orlanthi, let alone Heortlings.

And that's only 3rd Age use, when the original meaning has been largely

>To expand this definition to include allied people can only be a recipe
>for confusion and headaches.

Theyalan means Dawn People, not Heortlings. Heortlings means Heortlings, not
Dawn People or Theyalans. That's a clear use of the word in my books.

>>You seem to forget that Arkat had been a Child of the Forest at least.

>Which doesn't give any special insights and/or mysteries!

Other than familiarity with the entire pantheon mindset. And we know that
the elves' tutelage went beyond that, he received his early form of
"illumination" from them.

>He would have only become aware the usefulness of past experiences
>when he met Harmast and was initiated into Humakt IMO.

The experiences as a Horali didn't help to become a Seshnegi knight?

>>And what are the people - especially the urbans of the Dari Alliance -
>>doing? They are allied to The Enemy (in capitals).

>Not from their PoV - Nysalor is a good guy. Besides Mohammed
>expelled two clans of jews (and massacred a third) for the actions
>of what some people in the clans did.

Did those clans claim they were the bad guys? No, to them Mohammed was the
bad guy, expelling one clan after the other of their co-religionists for his
petty war (from their POV, not from that of the historian among the victors...).

>>And do you think that Maklamann was the only noble Ralian who took the
>>side of Arkat?

>Well he seems to have made a hero for it.

You said he made a hero for sticking to Arkat when none else would. Far
outside of Ralios, too, and irrelevant to the point that Korioni and other
Enerali leaders would have supported Arkat (for whatever reason). You

started saying somthing along the line "no Enerali except the person of
Maklamann joined Arkat".

>>Don't you think that enemies (= neighbours) of the
>>Telmori would gladly ally even with demonized troops to get even?

>And the Telmori in Ralios were Pure Ones who were not supporters
>of Nysalor.

I don't really believe in Pure Ones, but I am fairly sure that Arkat did
even less so. They fought his troops with wolf magic as well, and unlike
Storm Bulls Arkat doesn't have "sniff chaos", only "sniff taint of Gbaji"
which doesn't really apply to the werewolf gift.

>I said before the City of Wolves was a Old One enclave
>that lay in East Ralios.

And I don't buy that.

>>And (3rd Age) Safelstran (at least) is related to Stormspeech, i.e. is
>>related to the Theyalan language.

>No it isn't. It's actually a western tongue!

Yes. With strong other influences. Which are: Theyalan, Darktongue, and
"Hsunchen". Otherwise it would be Brithini.

>Because it is not stated that the Enerali became Orlanthi (as opposed
>to the Vustrians etc)

It isn't stated that the Bemuri became sort of Orlanthi (though not really
Heortling). Yet you accept that they did. What's so hard about the Enerali?

>>Or, to give the ball back to you, you are wrong IMO. As Jeff helped
>>explain, you can both retain your own culture and be included in the
>>Theyalan circles. The Theyalan missionaries did not displace local
>>creeds, but expanded them. Hence Galanin next to Orlanth, Humath, Ehilm,
>>and whatnot.

>And Jeff agreed that the Galanini did not become copies of Heortlings
>which was what you were originally arguing.

No, I did not. Neither did the Manirians, or (alas) the Talastari. They only
shared the problems caused by Lokamayadon thinking the division of power
through to the end.

I said they had the same problems wrt priesthood vs temporal power as did
the Orlanthi. I said that the storm priesthood tended towards closeness to
Lokamayadon's unified cult of storm, and that kings like Maklamann resisted

The Lightbringers had brought powerful magic to the priesthood which
exceeded the powers of the royal magics. They remained Enerali, but their
magic allowed them to ignore royal commands if they stood united.

Nick gave very good points for knights vs. wizards. Replace knight by king
and wizard by priest, and see how it fits...

And OF COURSE the parallel is not as easy as that. Details differ. It's a
comparison, not "a is identical to b".


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