From: Peter Metcalfe (email@example.com)
Date: Fri 20 Feb 1998 - 05:22:19 EET
Me>>I dislike the cookie-cutter model of pro-arkati rurals against
>>pro-nysaloran cities presented here. This presumes that the
>>Enerali have somehow acquired marxist class-conciousness.
>The situation is bound to have been more complex, but is I included
>qualifiers everywhere, I'd end up with a manifest like those in Life of Brian.
I realize that but I'm saying that IMO the basic model is flawed.
>After all, the first exposure of the Ralians came
>through the Kethaelan and Manirian Council missionaries - the one to leave
>marks even in backwater rural communities. The later exposure would have
>radiated from the cities, since the Dorastans (not exactly Heortlings IMO)
>already believed in a pyramid structure.
Once again the rural=good, urban=bad analogy. The first Theyalan
missionaries would have dealt with the _leaders_ of the societies
they reached. The wisdom would then flow out from the leaders
down to the masses.
>>He would have only become aware the usefulness of past experiences
>>when he met Harmast and was initiated into Humakt IMO.
>The experiences as a Horali didn't help to become a Seshnegi knight?
And as I said before, the Seshnegi had good myths to explain the
transition between Brithini and Seshnegi for Arkat's satisfaction.
>>>And do you think that Maklamann was the only noble Ralian who took the
>>>side of Arkat?
>>Well he seems to have made a hero for it.
>You said he made a hero for sticking to Arkat when none else would. Far
>outside of Ralios, too, and irrelevant to the point that Korioni and other
>Enerali leaders would have supported Arkat (for whatever reason).
You have no source claiming that Korion and the other Enerali
supported Arkat. The only relevant text is that Arkat formented
rebellion in the contryside and that heathen barbarians came
in from the hills. From this, you construct a scenario where the
nation of the Korioni revolt as a whole (sans city and priests)
to help Arkat fight against the Telmori (who were not even his
IMO Arkat relied on support from disaffected elements in the
countryside (of all three tribes) and Vustrians in his effort
to cleanse Ralios of the Deceiver. I do not know why those
elements revolted or what their grieviances where any more than
I know the precise nature of the grievances of the Heortlings
>You started saying somthing along the line "no Enerali except the
>person of Maklamann joined Arkat".
I said that Maklamann was condemned by his cult for supporting Arkat
who was a foreign invader. The condemnation by his cult/society
is a fact from ToTRM#5. You have attempted to introduce an Orlanthi
Parallel which reduced the trageedy of his circumstances to a mere
slap with a wet bus ticket by saying that it was only a few pompous
Nysaloran Priest-Twits in the City who excommunicated him.
>>>Don't you think that enemies (= neighbours) of the
>>>Telmori would gladly ally even with demonized troops to get even?
>>And the Telmori in Ralios were Pure Ones who were not supporters
>I don't really believe in Pure Ones, but I am fairly sure that Arkat did
>even less so. They fought his troops with wolf magic as well, and unlike
>Storm Bulls Arkat doesn't have "sniff chaos", only "sniff taint of Gbaji"
>which doesn't really apply to the werewolf gift.
The Pure Ones were not allied with the World Council nor the Dari
Alliance so why would they fight for or against Arkat? Their real
hammering comes IMO when Talor crosses the Wolf Pass and sees the Wolf
People and assumes that they are kindred to the Big Bad Wolf People
that he just spent blood, soil, tears and toil in cleansing Fronela of.
>>I said before the City of Wolves was a Old One enclave
>>that lay in East Ralios.
>And I don't buy that.
Published literature tends support my point that the City of Wolves
is in East Ralios rather than North Ralios where the Telmori were.
>>>And (3rd Age) Safelstran (at least) is related to Stormspeech, i.e. is
>>>related to the Theyalan language.
>>No it isn't. It's actually a western tongue!
>Yes. With strong other influences. Which are: Theyalan, Darktongue, and
>"Hsunchen". Otherwise it would be Brithini.
Nonsense. Most of the influences would have come from the ancient
tongue of the Galanini which is neither Theyalan nor Hsunchen.
Darktongue is the only other tongue which would have an impact.
>>Because it is not stated that the Enerali became Orlanthi (as opposed
>>to the Vustrians etc)
>It isn't stated that the Bemuri became sort of Orlanthi (though not really
>Heortling). Yet you accept that they did. What's so hard about the Enerali?
Because the Bemuri would have become Orlanthi _after_ the Chaos
Wars when because of grevious losses, they became vunerable to
Orlanthi influences and assimilation.
>>And Jeff agreed that the Galanini did not become copies of Heortlings
>>which was what you were originally arguing.
>No, I did not. Neither did the Manirians, or (alas) the Talastari. They only
>shared the problems caused by Lokamayadon thinking the division of power
>through to the end.
>I said they had the same problems wrt priesthood vs temporal power as did
>the Orlanthi. I said that the storm priesthood tended towards closeness to
>Lokamayadon's unified cult of storm, and that kings like Maklamann resisted
And I pointed out that this was following the Orlanthi parallel far
too closely for my likes and I have not seen a convincing reason why
it should be so.
>The Lightbringers had brought powerful magic to the priesthood which
>exceeded the powers of the royal magics. They remained Enerali, but their
>magic allowed them to ignore royal commands if they stood united.
Rubbish. This is introducing the Orlanthi parallel far too much
and even makes unwise asssumptions about the circumstances of
Alakoring's reforms. I find it difficult to believe that any
sizable body of priests anywhere in glorantha could function as
a monolithic bloc.
>Nick gave very good points for knights vs. wizards. Replace knight by king
>and wizard by priest, and see how it fits...
For your parallel to hold up, the Knights would despise the Wizards
because the latter are introducing Nysaloran and Theyalan Doctrines...
>And OF COURSE the parallel is not as easy as that. Details differ. It's a
>comparison, not "a is identical to b".
So why bother introducing the Orlanthi parallel in the first place
- --Peter Metcalfe
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