From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Fri 20 Feb 1998 - 13:38:20 EET


>>That CV would assume that Arkat's father came to Brithos the year
before the
>>Sunstop, or that he begat Arkat during the Sunstop, and that Arkat was
>>before the Sunstop ended. (Sandy once said that entire generations may
>>passed away during the Sunstop; surely a heroic pregnancy could be
fitted in.)

>Yes. Is there a problem with this?

Rather, without this timeless moment explanation I would have a problem.

>>However, if Arkat was given to the Horali college at age 13, he
>>must have been full-grown by that time, or he wouldn't have fit
>>physically with the other Horali.

>People become adults at around 13 in the Good Ancient Days.
>You should stop using real age parallels which are largely a
>product of our modern wealth.

A 13-year old would have been similar to a 16-year old young man of our
days, puberty possibly passed but still suffering from the
after-effects. (On the other hand, do super-heroes have pimples?)

The company Arkat came into seems to have been purpose-bred some 67
years before, since Greg's story (read out at RQ-Con 1) mentioned "the
first breeding of Horali since the Dawn". The physical equivalent to
middle twens rather than late teens, I would expect.

>>I can agree that he may have lied about his age to join the invasion
>>(not unheard of). I'm fairly sure that the other trainee Horali would
>>been that old.

>Why should he lie about his age? He's the best of the
>best. They select troops for skill and not age.

He was put in a trainee course with the other Horali "youths" from that
breeding, all of them of an age, it seems.


>>Prophecy, yes, but none of the kind "55 years onward, in the year 375,
>>noon of, the sun will stop in the sky."

>I notice that the Dwarf of Dwarf Run makes even more
>accurate predictions than that and nobody complains.

He is known to be a liar.

>>Just Glorantha doesn't really work that way. The best they
>>can do is prepare a new army to deal with the Hero Wars
>>prophecies they have heard about.

>What do you mean? We can predict that Bad Things are
>going to happen in the Year 2000 based on our computers.

Oh? Bad Things, based on our computers? You mean that plenty of old BIOS
versions will be unable to deal with the date shift due to sloppy
programming? ;-)

That's the kind of prophecy the Dwarf of Dwarf Run makes - he points at
inherent bugs rechristened features, and gives an estimate on how and
when the bug will manifest as serious trouble.

>We can deduce that if the air pressure starts dropping
>like a stone that a storm is coming.

Wrong. When the air pressure starts dropping, the storm is directly upon
us, and won't hit us tomorrow.

>So what's wrong with Zzabur making similar predictions?

Predictions in political or societal developments tend to hit off the
mark. After the Gulf War, people assumed that Saddam had been decisively

weakened, and that he wouldn't be a constant trouble. Look there now.

If Zzabur is perceiving "subtle shifts in the flows of magical energy",
would he have recognized the 7-year build-up of the Carmanians before
they had started the project? No, IMO, only when it had been going on
for a while, it may have registered with him. (Assuming that he still

was around at that time).

>>>The Pseudocosmic Egg was discovered in 307 ST and revealed in 350 ST.

>>Revealed in 350. That would be the most likely moment
>>even Zzabur could have learned about it.

>I don't think so. Zzabur isn't casting mystic vision spells
>and scanning all glorantha. What he is sensing is the rise
>in magical potential and says to himself 'By the prickling of
>my thumbs, Serious Shit this way comes' before ordering
>the babies.

Well, there wasn't anything major done with the Pseudocosmic Egg except
careful probing (by Iron-Skull Fanak, a Mostali who, while impatient in
dealing with people - including other Mostali, had endless patience in
dealing with artifacts).

>But the Arolanit will still need to have multiple sets of kids and
>mature them the hard way to fight off future crises.

3rd Age, early Hero War Arolanit?

BTW, I like Nick's idea that the Menena caste used the opportunity for
endless kisses (or whatever) during the Sunstop. This would explain why
the Brithini had a surplus population to leave in Arolanit...

>>That's where we disagree. Zzabur prepared an army to unleash a
>>strike" against a weakened foe, to end the threat for good, IMO.

>But he could had tons of diplomats to do the job for him
>instead of risking Brithini lives.

Apparently, the Theyalan diplomats (prior to the Bright Empire) were his
mettle after having recovered from the Slontos fiasco.

>>>But the Brithini grow up normally and do not age. I find it
>>>difficult to credit that the Brithini would treat someone
>>>50 years old as youthful or immature.

>>Think about Tolkien elves. Yes, the Brithini are IMO the
>>equivalent to Tolkien's Noldor - immortal, superhuman, and

>But the Brithini are humans who grow and mature the way
>like other humans do.

Are they taught like other humans? Are they allowed to learn by
experience, or do they have to learn everything by the book? If they
have an indeterminate life-time before them, why risk erroneous
developments when you can do it Right?

IMO the Brithini would congratulate the Loskalmi Perfecti child-raising
practices, though they would expect no real results since the education
would have to be broken off with the deaths of the pupils.

>Ergo they would _not_ treat someone as youthful
>or immature.

They would treat them as veteran officers treat young round-eyed cadets
fresh from the academy. Which they are, given their lack of experience
with real life.

>Physical death in a foreign country is almost certainly
>immediate annihilation for the Brithini which is why they
>prefer diplomacy first and not send in armies for aggressive

The Brithini training force of Arkat expected to be resurrected after
combat, and mentioned a delayed resurrection (with the consequences of
decay) as a measure of punishment. Remember, we aren't talking an
ordinary, playable culture here.

>>I'm not certain about that. Zzabur's coup happened within a few years
>>the Dawn, when the Brithini had not yet developed a sense of the new
>>called Time. They are slow learners IMO, because changes are anathema
to them.

>Zzabur and others were well acquainted with the Red Sands of Time
>which had been running since the Sun first disappeared.

Yes. The measurements with the Red Sands didn't mean the same thing
before the Greater Darkness than what it meant afterwards. I'm fairly

certain that the device measured the time of the Sunstop, too. The
records might have been burned.

>>>What evidence do you have Akgarbash of Laurmal's existance in the
>>>first age?

>>Well, if he is from the city of Laurmal, he was around before 1049,
>>probably for some time.

>Why? He could have been a prince-wizard of ruins. There's
>a trading enclave with the dwarves which bespeaks some
>permanent dwellings there just like the Real City in the Big

Maybe, but I doubt it. He now lives in Aggar, probably in or near the
City of 10,000 Magicians (rather than among dirty barbarians). He might
have been there already during the EWF period.

>>There aren't many non-Brithini (or other immortal races)
>>around from that period, the only individual I can think of offhand is
>>shamaness head-hunter who helped finish off the God Learners in East


The former belt-buckles salesman. Right, but far away, and worshipped.

>The Sorcerers of Orathorn.

Are they immortal?

>Countess Yolanela.

Only recently revealed to claim these memories.

>Yanasdros Ingestsson. Govertainer Shadowshirt.

Not people I can make sense of offhand.

>Malaskan Phillippe (was a God Learner in the Second Age).

Is a Brithini.

>Vastapoor and Vestenbora.

Were born to Arim and Sorana Tor after the end of the Inhuman
Occupation, and are only rarely re-summoned - you might as well claim
that the Silver Age Heroes are still around.

Joerg Baumgartner (via Hotmail)

Get Your Private, Free Email at


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:12:10 EEST