From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Sat 21 Feb 1998 - 02:41:11 EET

Joerg Baumgartner:

>>>That CV would assume that Arkat's father came to Brithos the year
>>>before the Sunstop, or that he begat Arkat during the Sunstop, and
>>>that Arkat was born before the Sunstop ended. (Sandy once said that
>>>entire generations may have passed away during the Sunstop; surely a
>>>heroic pregnancy could be fitted in.)

>>Yes. Is there a problem with this?

>Rather, without this timeless moment explanation I would have a problem.

If the timeless explanation is true, then how could we know that
the other brithini were 80 or 67 or whatever age Joerg seems
to be claiming they are?

>>>However, if Arkat was given to the Horali college at age 13, he
>>>must have been full-grown by that time, or he wouldn't have fit
>>>physically with the other Horali.

Me>>People become adults at around 13 in the Good Ancient Days.
>>You should stop using real age parallels which are largely a
>>product of our modern wealth.

>A 13-year old would have been similar to a 16-year old young man of our
>days, puberty possibly passed but still suffering from the
>after-effects. (On the other hand, do super-heroes have pimples?)

And 16 year olds were sent into battle during this century so
I fail to see what the problem is. Anyhow Arkat was 25 when
he landed at Arolanit.

>The company Arkat came into seems to have been purpose-bred some 67
>years before, since Greg's story (read out at RQ-Con 1) mentioned "the
>first breeding of Horali since the Dawn". The physical equivalent to
>middle twens rather than late teens, I would expect.

Perhaps there are other companies which are composed of younger Horali
but have some who were in born in 320 but were not good enough to
be in the premier league. Arkat on the other hand is exceptionally
good, he has proved himself in the recent civil war. So for the
Horali to stick him in the 'Sunstop Year' company would be madness.

>>Why should he lie about his age? He's the best of the
>>best. They select troops for skill and not age.

>He was put in a trainee course with the other Horali "youths" from that
>breeding, all of them of an age, it seems.

Refresher courses?


>>>Prophecy, yes, but none of the kind "55 years onward, in the year 375, on
>>>noon of, the sun will stop in the sky."

Me>>I notice that the Dwarf of Dwarf Run makes even more
>>accurate predictions than that and nobody complains.

>He is known to be a liar.

On occasion. He still predicts accurately.

>>>Just Glorantha doesn't really work that way. The best they
>>>can do is prepare a new army to deal with the Hero Wars
>>>prophecies they have heard about.

Me>>What do you mean? We can predict that Bad Things are
>>going to happen in the Year 2000 based on our computers.

>Oh? Bad Things, based on our computers? You mean that plenty of old BIOS
>versions will be unable to deal with the date shift due to sloppy
>programming? ;-)

The year 2000 bug. And it wasn't sloppy programming, they were
economizing on memory.

>That's the kind of prophecy the Dwarf of Dwarf Run makes - he points at
>inherent bugs rechristened features, and gives an estimate on how and
>when the bug will manifest as serious trouble.

So why can't Zzabur do the same?

Me>>We can deduce that if the air pressure starts dropping
>>like a stone that a storm is coming.

>Wrong. When the air pressure starts dropping, the storm is directly upon
>us, and won't hit us tomorrow.

I said absolutely _nothing_ about tomorrow so take remedial reading
lessons before criticizing people as wrong.

Me>>So what's wrong with Zzabur making similar predictions?

>Predictions in political or societal developments tend to hit off the

But I'm not talking about those sort of developments, I'm talking
about Zzabur predicting that some massive _magical_ shit is going
to happen! Sheesh!!

>If Zzabur is perceiving "subtle shifts in the flows of magical energy",
>would he have recognized the 7-year build-up of the Carmanians before
>they had started the project? No, IMO, only when it had been going on
>for a while, it may have registered with him.

IMHO yes. And he would have especially noted the approaching Sunstop
because it was happening all over the _world_. Why did you think
I was mentioning the heathen god, the Kralori emperor, the magical
disease etc?

>>>[The Pseudocosmic Egg was] Revealed in 350. That would be the most
>>>likely moment even Zzabur could have learned about it.

Me>>I don't think so. Zzabur isn't casting mystic vision spells
>>and scanning all glorantha. What he is sensing is the rise
>>in magical potential and says to himself 'By the prickling of
>>my thumbs, Serious Shit this way comes' before ordering
>>the babies.

>Well, there wasn't anything major done with the Pseudocosmic Egg except
>careful probing (by Iron-Skull Fanak, a Mostali who, while impatient in
>dealing with people - including other Mostali, had endless patience in
>dealing with artifacts).

Your supposition. Not one that I believe.

>>>That's where we disagree. Zzabur prepared an army to unleash a
>>>"preemptive strike" against a weakened foe, to end the threat
>>> for good, IMO.

Me>>But he could had tons of diplomats to do the job for him
>>instead of risking Brithini lives.

>Apparently, the Theyalan diplomats (prior to the Bright Empire) were his
>mettle after having recovered from the Slontos fiasco.

What on earth are you talking about? Where is this conflict?

Me>>But the Brithini are humans who grow and mature the way
>>like other humans do.

>Are they taught like other humans? Are they allowed to learn by
>experience, or do they have to learn everything by the book? If they
>have an indeterminate life-time before them, why risk erroneous
>developments when you can do it Right?

Learning implies experience from mistakes and knowing what not
to do. So I do believe the Brithini are taught like other people.
This method will still be found in Seshnela today.

>IMO the Brithini would congratulate the Loskalmi Perfecti child-raising
>practices, though they would expect no real results since the education
>would have to be broken off with the deaths of the pupils.

So they are taught like other humans?

Me>>Ergo they would _not_ treat someone as youthful or immature.

>They would treat them as veteran officers treat young round-eyed cadets
>fresh from the academy. Which they are, given their lack of experience
>with real life.

Good. Agreement noted.

Me>>Physical death in a foreign country is almost certainly
>>immediate annihilation for the Brithini which is why they
>>prefer diplomacy first and not send in armies for aggressive

>The Brithini training force of Arkat expected to be resurrected after
>combat, and mentioned a delayed resurrection (with the consequences of
>decay) as a measure of punishment.

If they win the battle. But a battle where Brithini are killed
suggests they are losing it.

>Remember, we aren't talking an ordinary, playable culture here.

The Brithini are still a culture and thus they must be robust
to have survived down through the arches of the years.

>>>I'm not certain about that. Zzabur's coup happened within a few years since
>>>the Dawn, when the Brithini had not yet developed a sense of the new thing
>>>called Time. They are slow learners IMO, because changes are anathema to

>>Zzabur and others were well acquainted with the Red Sands of Time
>>which had been running since the Sun first disappeared.

>Yes. The measurements with the Red Sands didn't mean the same thing
>before the Greater Darkness than what it meant afterwards.

Sez who? There was time before the great darkness and there
was Time after the Dawn. Ergo the Brithini are adapted to
living in a world of change - given that they have lived through
the Silence and become part of Zzabur's great spell.

>>>>What evidence do you have Akgarbash of Laurmal's existance in the
>>>>first age?

>>>Well, if he is from the city of Laurmal, he was around before 1049,
>>>probably for some time.

>>Why? He could have been a prince-wizard of ruins. There's
>>a trading enclave with the dwarves which bespeaks some
>>permanent dwellings there just like the Real City in the Big

>Maybe, but I doubt it.

Why? What is wrong with a permanent human settlement amid the ruins?

>He now lives in Aggar, probably in or near the
>City of 10,000 Magicians (rather than among dirty barbarians). He might
>have been there already during the EWF period.

He might, but we have no evidence to say that he was. Since
Arolanit was God Learner controlled during that time - it casts
doubt on the proposition that he was a Brithini, no?

>>The Sorcerers of Orathorn.

>Are they immortal?

>>Yanasdros Ingestsson. Govertainer Shadowshirt.

>Not people I can make sense of offhand.

Go look it up in the Genertela Book, KoS and Uz Lore and quit wasting
time and bandwidth.

>>Malaskan Phillippe (was a God learner in the Second Age)

>Is a Brithini.

But being a God Learner did not damage his health as he was born
before the Dawn.

- --Peter Metcalfe


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