Theyalan Exegesis

From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Fri 20 Feb 1998 - 23:09:29 EET

Joerg Baumgartner:

>I defined Theyalan as meaning "from the Dawn Council", not "Orlanthi".
>Peter takes an exception, claiming that I mean "Orlanthi" when I say
>Theyalan. To repeat, I don't mean Orlanthi.

I know you don't mean Orlanthi. I'm saying you are misusing the
word when you apply it to what you do mean.

>>The Unity Council created no culture. It was an alliance of
>>several cultures. An elf or dwarf or troll cannot be a theyalan
>>or even have the same culture as the humans.

>The Dara Happan metropoleis Yuthuppa, Raibanth and Alkoth share the Dara
>Happan culture, no?

Are you seriously claiming that the cultural differences between the
Tripolis are as great as those which exist between Trolls, Elves
and Dwarves?

>The Theyalan Dawn culture is much the same.

Oh. You are being serious. Listen, the differences between the
Dara Happans are just as great as the differences between the
various heortling tribes. How you can expand the definition
to include nohumans while remaining on planet earth is beyond me!

>And if my use of Theyalan for Caladralanders, Rightarm Islanders and
>Esrolians is wrong, then Genertela Book p.45 is wrong in this case.

Yup. A definition which uses a God Learner construct to define
Orlanthi-like people. Which still doesn't prove your barking mad
contention that the Elves, Dwarves and Trolls can be Theyalan.

>>Why not simply bite the bullet and admit that the Esrolians and
>>Caladranders are no longer Orlanthi?

>They still are members of the Theyalan culture, though. They have the
>same religious background as the Orlanthi to their admittedly very
>variant main deities. Esrolian notions of Aldrya or Issaries don't
>differ much from Heortlander notions.

The Esrolians and Heortlanders don't worship Aldrya and Issaries
is really a transcultural diety (he was worshipped by the God

>>I believe the Aramites are still Orlanthi worshippers in
>>the first age but have ceased to do so when they interbred
>>with Uz to become the Tusk Riders.

>I believe that their earth worship was predominant, and made them
>distinctly non-Heortling. Their manhood rituals may have invoked
>Orlanth, but wouldn't necessarily make Orlanth the main model for

Your supposition. Not one that I believe.

[Theyalan = First Age Heortlings quotefest]

>>The Orlanthi themselves have a consistent usage for Theyalans
>>to wit:

[Quote snipped]
: KoS p91.

>Thanks for typing in the quote. I feel that it supports my position
>perfectly. The first paragraph doesn't even mention Orlanth. The second
>paragraph deals with the effects of the Lightbringers' Quest on all of
>the Theyalan peoples, human and nonhuman, Orlanthi and others, or rather
>the lack of it in one of the peoples they encountered - to wit, the Dara
>Happan horse lords.

Bullshit. I can only assume that you have fumbled read english.
It uses 'they' consistently thus the 'they' in the first and second
para are the same orlanthi worshipping people. Please do not insult
people's intelligence.

>"Friendship to Orlanth" - this can be found in Esrolia, and (to a lesser
>extent) in Caladraland as well. Even the Praxians profess tolerance
>towards Orlanth, some even worship him.

Complete the quote 'Friendship to Orlanth, or to his people'.
Obviously it means a single culture.

>>It seems the Theyalan council is not the World Council but a
>>subsidary council composed of the Heortling tribes.

>Peter, you seem to be blind to the fact that only half of the human
>nations (or rather tribes, back then) belonging to the Council in the
>first century were Orlanthi, and since Esrolia belonged to the other
>half, less than half their number.

What council are you talking about here? If you mean the world
council then it doesn't address what I said. Please address
what people are saying.

>The settlers of Dorastor display lots of traits I wouldn't expect from
>traditional Heortlings, and I think that at least some of them were
>surplus population from Esrolia.

Obviously they are not Theyalans.

[Quote snipped]
: KoS p180

>The quote above distances the Orlanthi from the populace of the EWF.

No it doesn't. It distances the Theyalans from the Populace
of the EWF and since the Theyalans are first age heortlings,
they are right to do so.

>Transracial cultures are not unknown in and around Dragon Pass.

There is no such thing as a transracial culture. Even on
planet earth, there's hardly a nation-state with a single

: 'The Theyalans recognized that Yelm, the Dara Happan Great
: God, was the manifestation of their own Emperor, an enemy
: of Orlanth. The Orlanthi also realized that Yelm was also
: the sun god.'
: KoS p196

>Meaning that this Orlanthi myth had insinuated itself into the religions
>of the other Theyalan peoples, like the Caladralanders.

I see that the synonymous usage of Orlanthi and Theyalan has
eluded you. Why would the Caladralanders care about who
the hell Yelm is?

>>Thus Theyalans = Dawn Age Heortlings from the viewpoint
>>of a lot of modern Orlanthi.

>And that's the wisdom of the world?

Obviously not from the use of 'from the viewpoint of a lot of modern

>I don't know how to type the logical symbol for "subtotal of", but
>that's what these texts _really_ say. Esrolite, even Islander sources
>would use "we" for the Theyalan civilisation as well.

Most of the cultures decsribed by outsiders as theyalan do not
consider themselves to be theyalan but Orlanthi. Esrolians and
Islanders do not consider themselves to be Orlanthi.

>The Kitori are, and have always been (when they were around) a Theyalan
>tribe. I wouldn't call them Heortlings, and Orlanthi only with some
>difficulty, but they clearly are Theyalans.

The human Kitori are Orlanthi worshippers.

>>The God Learners acknowledge that there was a specific
>>culture in the first age

>Which is the time we were discussing when you argued against my use of
>the term, right?

Amazing. I argued against the application to the elves on the
grounds not that the only people who could be called Theyalans
were the Dawn Age Heortlings and not allies like elves. For Joerg
to remember my arguements as denying that such a culture existed,
suggests that I'm wasting my time here.

>>And you were using it to refer to Elves in the First Age! Thus
>>you were using it _wrongly_ in _meaning_.

>You seem to choose to forget that in the lands of the Council of World
>Friends the various races and nations interchanged a lot of their

No they didn't. Most of their culture remain intact. You are
still wrong.

>Zorak Zoran became the chief wargod of the council when it
>began to change its character, but this chief wargod was followed by
>human warriors not just of the Kitori tribe, but by Heortlings involved
>in fighting the Dara Happan horselords as well.

Source for Zorak Zoran being chief wargod of the Council and the
Heortlings worshipping Zorak Zoran? Or are you wildly extrapolating
what is written in Troll Gods for Troll society to humans?

>The Aldryami were big into the fertility rites of the worshippers of
>Esrola/Ernalda, and vice versa. They still keep this connection,
>allowing even Praxian cow-mother initiates as associates into their
>vegetarian ceremonies.

Rubbish. The 'Eiritha' in the cult writeup is a God Learned Term
meaning the mother of the beasts.

>The female culture shares _much_ of the aldryami
>mysteries and insights, and the reverse can be said as well.

Complete bollocks. There is no female culture and there are
plenty of cultures whose females find the Aldryami repulsive.

- --Peter Metcalfe


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:12:17 EEST