The Only Old Thread

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Fri 01 May 1998 - 12:21:00 EEST

Peter Metcalfe and I continue...

About who collected Arkat's Command, and where:
>>I don't know much about the situation in the
>>former Jorganostelli lands (modern Grazelands and Esrolian North

> Why would the OOO not collect taxes from them considering they are
> closer to his lands than they are to Dagori Inkarth?

If he was a big hitter in the gathering of taxes, he might. As I said, I
don't know much about the region in this period, apart from the fact
that the late EWF had (at least) one city there (now a ruin).

I asked why the OOO would deign to collect taxes in Dragon Pass when he
had Esrolia conveniently at his feet.

> Because he's greedy - he tried to gain control of Dragon Pass during
> the Inhuman Occupation (when he already had Esrolia).

The reports in KoS and Uz Lore name other warlords, from the Troll Woods
btw, i.e. not directly from Obsidian Palace.

As a son of Argan Argar, the OOO will have some interest in income
through exchange and gifts, and as a son of Asrelia/Esrola some pride in
possessions may come into the game as well. Still, to call him greedy
doesn't quite reflect the role he played throughout history. Conscious
and protective of his power, yes.

> Furthermore Esrolia wasn't becoming densely populated until
> the second age.

Sez who? Esrolia has lots of fertile river lowland which allows
settlements within sight of each other. The river mud might be
manageable with Barntar plows. Fishing and water fowl provide additional
sources of food, so that they didn't have to settle apart from each
other to find optimal farming conditions (different from most of

Kerofinela, where good farming land and mediocre land alternate, the
good land mostly in possession of full carls and thanes, whereas the
mediocre land is left to cottars and stickpickers).

>> Quite a lot of Heortlings submitted to Palangio's rule when the
>> Obsidian Palace and the Hendriki in the mountains held out.

> And to punish the Heortlings for surrendering is like putting
> France under military occupation after the second world war
> for submitting to Hitler. Rather harsh, don't you think?

Arkat was harsh, and single-minded about Gbaji.

Anyway, the way he set up the command, the Heortlings had Dara Happa to
bleed in order to pay the Command to the trolls. It's the Heortlings'

failure to keep control over Dara Happa which made Arkat's Command
oppressive, not the set-up itself.

> [Diwan parallel noted and snipped - personally I think the tribes
> who paid Arkat's Command had to pay it in human flesh]

Human flesh? Bollocks, if you excuse me. Had you written this from a
Gloranthan perspective, ok, but as a serious statement this is

>>Arkat gave them a stipend for their success against the
>>Bright Empire, not for their (immense, compared to the Heortlings -
>>the Trollkin Curse!) suffering from the empire.

> Bear in mind that many heortlings once liberated (by the Army of the
> West, not the Trolls) were only too happy to conquer Dara Happa for
> Arkat (without Troll Help).

They went there for plunder, just like the Praxians.

> So why are they being punished by paying Arkat's Command?

Arkat's Command can be seen as sharing the spoils of war from Dara Happa
with the trolls.

>>This would also explain why the high kings of the Heortlings (or "of
>>Heortland") were Hendriki afterwards.

> What is your source for this statement? I know of no High King
> of the Heortlings after Arkat's War.

There was a King of Heortland, a title formerly assigned to the High
King, and after Arkat had liberated Kerofinela and Kethaela, to the
Hendriki king. You may be right in the sense that there was no western

Roman Emperor after Odoaker slew the last Roman one, but later there
were the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire (of German Nation).

>>recognize that the Stygian period
>>of the Lhankor Mhy temple in Nochet is referred to.

> It is? It appears to be a distinct temple from Nochet. Minaryth
> Purple writing in 1622 calls it the 'Stygian Lhankor Mhy Temple'
> whereas if it were the Nochet Temple referred to, he would have

> called it that IMO.

You might interpret this into this mention, but I doubt your conclusions
very strongly.

For a start, why would Geolgin start his report for the Stygian Lhankor Mhy
temple with a description fo the Grand City of Black Glass if it was
situated there? Wouldn't he have mentioned the presence of LM sages in the
city if there were any?

> Also Dagobard's Collection mentions a Nochet
> Lhankor Mhy Temple in 1213 (when the OOO was still alive).

Long after Esrolia had been purged of Stygian notions by the God Learner
conquest, though.

> I think therefore the Stygian Temple was at the City of Black Glass
> hence its name.

The City of Black Glass is a troll city, admittedly in an impressive
surrounding. A Lhankor Mhy temple there would need extremely hungry
guard mantises to keep hungry trolls and trollkin from the library...

Sorry, this sounds too inlikely for my taste.

Geolgin's believes:
>>Don't you think that the "and contained no treachery" line is a
>>statement like "Arkat becoming a troll was not treason, but
>>necessary", meant to counter meaningless accusations that Arkat
>>was a traitor to the Orlanthi cause?

> Nope. The statement is not written by him but is a statement by
> a later scholar about Geolgin's beliefs.

Might be based on other writings of or on Geolgin.

> Also by the time Geolgin lived, Arkat's Command had become
> defunct and so there was little need to defend Arkat then.

Try and mention Arkat to your average Orlanthi, and wait for the
reaction. Usually Arkat is regarded as the remedy almost as bad as the
original disease.


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