Second Age Geography

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Fri 01 May 1998 - 12:21:00 EEST

Danny Bourne chimed in to Peter's endless debate with me (and vice versa).

Good stuff...

Peter Metcalfe about the 2nd Age map of Genertela in Uz Lore:

>The map is somewhat achronistic as it shows Arkat's Empire (which
>fell in 740 ST) yet we have the Kralori Empire as Jrusteli aligned
>and the New Kingdom of Wisdom (which didn't form until after 768 ST)
>and the Machine Ruins which didn't occur until after 917 ST. So we
>cannot draw unimpeachable conclusions from the map.

Bingo. Any conclusion based solely on that map remains questionable, then.

>>If the author wanted to show where Arkat's Dark Empire was, he could
>>have shaded that part of the Jrusteli Empire after the conquest.

>That would give the impression that the Dark Empire were allied to
>the Jrusteli.

Same for Nochet and Esrolia - both of which opposed the Jrusteli Empire but
were taken at last.

>>Note that the marked territory is said to be an ally of the Empire.

>Marked territories are said to be Jrusteli Empire or Allies.
>Since Orlanth is said never to have submitted to the God
>Learners (Players Book: Genertela p17), I think these people
>were oppressed rather than allies.

Suffering from the side effects of the experiments, but probably
participating in the trade through the empire.

I found a few interesting phrases in "Orlanth and the Machine God", BTW:

"... and made poison smoke, and called a wind so that the ash was dumped
upon the lands of the goddess." Very similar in wording to the Footprint myth.

Re: Old Day Traditionalists there is something on p.95 as well (emphasis and
comments mine):

"The pernicious thought [to be fair, this refers to the Zistorites, not
draconic thinking] had not taken root in the Shadowlands, _where the old
gods fed daily with their worshippers, unpolluted by such ideas."

Sounds like Old Day Traditionalist paradise to me.

Minaryth Purple corroborates this in his introduction to Geolgin Askarios'
report on the trolls:

"Under his [the OOO's] leadership the region avoided both the invasions and
internal excesses of the God Learners and the Empire of the Wyrms Friends,
thereby helping preserve the Old Ways for us.

>>We know that the people of Heortland were part of the besieging forces
>>of the Machine wars rather than of the besieged forces.

>We cannot be certain. The people of Dragon Pass still worshipped
>Orlanth at this late stage

Orlanth the Dragon(friend). While this cult was present in Kethaela as well,
it was far from being dominant.

There are of course the Old Day Traditionalists...

>Note that Gorings the Tap is said to have enslaved Bingista and
>another one. Perhaps these are the patron spirits of the enslaved
>Heortlings subjugated like the False Gods?

Orlanth cutting Zistor open with a tool (aka Mostal) to free Bingista is a
replay of the Orlanth and Aroka myth (probably not that popular in the EWF).

More Old Day Ts:

>I'm speaking of the earlier centuries (7th or 8th) when the EWF
>started expanding. You are quite right to point out that ODT would
>have found fertile ground for their cause in Dragon Pass proper in
>the later centuries, and to rephrase I think their cells would be
>densest in South Peloria (mainly because the Last Chance revolt took
>place there circa 925 FWIW).

I still can't see why the ODTs should have moved north only. Although from
the sources, I had the impression that they stayed where they were, but kept
low profile.

I don't know if Harmast had really done anything about the pyramid scheme
installed by Lokamayadon to channel all worship energies through a mortal
recipient. The Third Council members used such techniques themselves, so
some sort of this activity seems to have survived Harmast's struggle with Loky.

>Joerg Baumgartner:

>>The dissidents who objected against the widespread acceptance of
>>draconic powers and draconic forms of their religion started as early as
>>in the 580s, when the EWF still was restricted to Dragon Pass.

>It said they 'eventually' found 'intercult unity in a secret
>organization called the Old Day Traditionalists.'

The same sentence (Glorantha Book, Genertela Box) says "Conservatives were
driven out, killed, or forced underground," meaning that some left, some
remained. We know from the map that some went to south Peloria. We don't
have any clues whatsoever that this was the only direction people emigrated.

>We don't
>know when the 'eventually' was but my guess is that many of
>the conservatives fled to South Peloria and formed emigre

It's too bad that neither TFS nor the older version Dara Happan Book of
Emperors (DHBE) have any maps between 500 and 700.

The DHBE map showing the ODT revolt in 925 does so on the lower margin,
which happens to lie in Bilini (not Talastari) lands. The map doesn't show
Dragon Pass proper, or lands to the south.

Would you discount the possibility that the God Learner incited scholarly
riots were carried by Old Day Traditionalist dissidents? IMO they would fit

>When the EWF expanded a few centuries later, the
>leaders in South Peloria would have fallen from power and thus
>made common cause with the Dragon Pass emirges.

>Some conservatives could have emigrated to Kethaela but it's
>a whole new ballgame with the OOO and the God Learners struggling
>for supremacy.

Not quite. After releasing the Draconic Virus, the Jrusteli aren't recorded
to do much for the next two centuries. They aren't even mentioned in Geolgin
Askarios' texts (admittedly on the subject of trolls, not Nochet). Their

contact with Balazar started after 720. It is really hard to tell when and
how the EWF expanded. To the south, there seems to have been a well defined
border which is described by Hrestol Arganitis. To the north, "Saird" is
described as another buffer state (like Kethaela). Now if we only knew which
definition of Saird was used here - Holay and surrounding lands, or the
lands around Jillaro?

BTW: Hrestol Arganitis states that the natives of the CreekStream River
laughed at his concerns about humans being ruled by trolls. Doesn't sound
like OOO oppression.

>I don't think that people would care too much
>about the evils of dragon worship and the conservatives might
>even find themselves lynched as God Learner symps...

The ODTs needn't have been a minority group in Kethaela, see above.

I think I will have to expand my Second and Early Third Age History of
Heortland article soon, based on this discussion. Anyway, have a look at:

and comment on the theories stated there.


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