Holy Country versus Grazers

From: Peter Metcalfe (metcalph@voyager.co.nz)
Date: Sat 02 May 1998 - 07:24:54 EEST

Joerg Baumgartner:

>Peter expects to find raids in the Esrolian march mentioned in CHDP.

>>>For some reason, Densesros doesn't mention _any_ major events in the
>>>Holy Country unrelated to Argrath/prior to the siege of Whitewall.

Me>> The Grazer's Kings List is most complete in Jalk's Book so the
>> arguement of Densesros omitting Holy Country events fails methinks.

>On the other hand, if southern raids were as regular an exercise as
>Gloranthan Military Experience suggests, nobody would have mentioned

Yes but the Grazer raids on Sartar and other places are hardly as
genocidal as that which you postulate for "Esrolia-north-of-the-
Building-Wall". To completely depopulate the people of this land
is a major operation one which would have been noted in the
Grazers King List. Therefore IMO the land north of the Shadow's
Plateau was a no-mans-land dominated by Trolls and Beastmen.

[Resettling the farmers of the lands north of the Building Wall:]

>>>There are always the slum quarters of Nochet, and other cities.
>> They are transformed from productive farmers to proles. That is
>> going to put a huge crimp on Esrola's grain surplus.

>Happens all the time, anyway. I suppose that occasional outbreaks of
>fire, violence, or plague keep the city population manageable.

Really? When was the last time people had massive population
movements into Nochet on this scale? Assuming Sartarite population
densities, that's something like 50 000+ people and Nochet only
has 100 000! Whereas the Esrolians if they had stayed there
could have weathered what ever depradations that the Grazers
could have visited on them.

>>>What could [the Pharaoh] have done? Annexed the Grazelands,
>>>allies of the kingdom of Tarsh, his most useful (only) buffer
>>>state vs. the expanding Lunar Empire?

>> It depends when you think this took place. It can't have happened
>> before 1325 as the Grazers are only discovered then. In 1350, the
>> Pharaoh has made a border with Ironhoof (to whom the Grazers own
>> allegiance) at the Crossline. So it can't have happened after this
>> time. (My opinion is the Grazers expanded after 1616 ST...)

>Tarsh was founded to stop the Lunar advance (roughly at the Death Line).

Nope. When Arim the Pauper crossed in 1330 or so, the Lunars
had not even conquered Mirin's Cross.

>The following years regularly saw action between both sides. Only Sheng
>Seleris' interlude stopped the Lunars from expanding (replaced that
>threat with Pentan raiders...).

Your history is skewed. The date of the Daughter's Road is 1333
to 1349 ST in which the Conquering Daughter reached Filichet.
After that time, the Conquering Daughter did not engage in any
more agressive actions until her death in 1358 ST.

The Battle of the Falling Hills FWIW occurs in Holay and the
army was looking for something in a tree groves. It appears
they were not expecting to fight the Tarshites...

>IMO the Grazers started to raid southwards already under Hendroste
>Goldhand. Hendroste Goldheart or his successors may even have pursued an
>active resettlement policy from the Marches.

Hendroste is resettling the grazers where?

>> Between 1325 and 1350, the Lunar Empire is far away as Holay
>> and the Grazers were not allied to the Tarshites. So Belintar
>> shouldn't have any problems with reprisals against the Grazers.

>Apart from ongoing internal problems in Heortland, a major Lunar
>invasion was turned only by surprise magics.

The Falling Hills takes place in Holay and is not a Lunar
Invasion by any stretch of the imagination.

>>>Somehow the offensive military power of Kethaela leaves a lot to

>> Only in recent years. I do feel that during the fourteenth to
>> the sixteenth century, the Kethaelan army was good.

>Well, the Ditali remained unconquered throughout the time.

Thonble has been taken recently. But the Ditali were
only stirred up by Lunar agitators.

>Even if
>Belintar's army was good, it didn't take the offensive.

I submit lack of any evidence about the History of the Holy
Country in the relevant period precludes us from stating
whether the Holy Country was offensive or not.

>The only active expansion attempt (into the Mournsea, when the Closing
>had been lifted) was a failure.

It's the only active expansion that we know about. OTOH when the
Kralori fleet is sunk, the Pharaoh declares that he will conquer
no more which implies Dosakayo was a conquest of sorts.

- --Peter Metcalfe


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