More Haunted Lands Babble, pt. 2

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Sun 03 May 1998 - 01:04:00 EEST


Kitori rule of the Haunted Lands:
>>> Futhermore this goes against the Pharaohs known principles of
>>> governance (ie hive everything off into sixths).

>>Which explains deviances like Porthomeka, Karse and Refuge, I suppose.

>Karse is ruled by Heortlands,

Apparently Karse is not directly a part of the kingdom of Heortland. At
least not of Richard's Kingdom of Malkonwal, which didn't raise a single
lance to defend the city from the Lunar assault. It does belong to the

religious domain of Heortland, though...

>Refuge by God Forgot and Porthomeka by Caladraland.

>OTOH we are talking about the Pharaoh allowing
>a group that is not one of the Sixths rule people who are Esrolians.

But didn't you suggest Malkioni lords in Porthomeka? (BTW this is one of the
few regions in Maniria where I don't believe in this phenomenon. Two foreign
powers ruling over Esrolians don't seem to work...)

Nochet Malkioni

>>All it takes to make an incursion is send some propagandists to stir up
>>impressible and naive scholars-in-training. Agents provocateurs. Provide
>>logistic help to hothead dissidents. Worked with the Baader-Meinhof

>I don't think it was like that. The impression I get is a native
>Malkioni population lead by a Bishop Cyril of Alexandria figure
>who incites his flock into having a pagan Hypatia figure (with
>artificial beard) skinned alive with clam shells.

A native God Learner Malkioni population?

>The Baader-Meinhof recieved heavy support from East Germany.

Which is what I expect the Jrusteli did with long-haired, scrawny bearded
Lhankor Mhy fanatics who adhered to the Old Day Traditions (and had brothers
in cults like Storm Bull, Humakt and Orlanth).

>I myself think these disturbances are riots between two ethnic
>groups in Nochet.

I'm no native speaker of English, but to me a riot is an outbreak of
violence against the establishment. (At least the closest translation to
German is...)

Which is the other ethnic group involved? The Alxandrite examples you cite
below are mostly between minorities (but then, did Alexandria have a
majority?) or roughly equally strong major groups (Greek Orthodox vs.
Monophysites, and why is this an ethnic and not a religious struggle?)

But why call it a Jrusteli incursion if it were native Malkioni?

Why make it the Malkioni who rioted, and not Old Day Traditionalists? Where
do you get all the Malkioni to carry the riot to Dragon's Eye?

>Historical parallels would be the Greeks versus the
>jews in Alexandria, the Christians versus the Pagans in Alexandria,
>the Monophysites versus Greek Orthodox in Alexandria...

Were any of these riots incursions by an opposing empire (or a counter-emperor)?

If you can name a good textbook on Alexandrite history, I'll be happy to
look into this myself.

>I can think of a few modern Indian parallels but I think my point is made.

Yes. I still ask why the rioters would not have been Old Day Traditionalists.

>I've dealt with the Stygian Library elsewhere (I think it's at
>the City of Black Glass).

Probably in the next digest. I still think that Geolign would have mentioned
it in his description of Argan Argar.

>>Nochet Uni is the Great Library of Lhankor Mhy annex. I don't see any
>>need for a Malkioni-run university in Nochet

>But I should point out that the God
>Learners have opened a school that taught Auld Wyrmish in Nochet.

Well, in a recent discussion I've been told that the "God Learners" who made
that spirit raid on the cult of Drolgard weren't exactly God Learners in the
RuneQuest Sight sense. According to that discussion the God Learner movement
started only around 650, IIRC...

>It is this school that becomes the centre of God Learner influence
>in Nochet IMO and that the Great Lhankor Mhy Temple is a seperate
>institution reflecting native beliefs.

1. I'm not at all sure that the teaching wasn't done somewhere in the
scholars' district or in the temple premises. Where else would you find a
willing audience?

2. If the discussion I mentioned above is correct, there was no permanent
"God Learner Monk" presence in Nochet, only visiting merchants.

>I hardly think there was good land north of the Shadow Plateau.

Why? Hrestol Arganitis made a river journey up the Creekstream River from
Karse to Far Point. He doesn't mention any desolation on his way, but
reports thriving towns all the way.

>The New River is still some distance from the Stone Cross. So how
>could he have known that the Crossline was open. Even as late as
>1316 (or so), everybody talked about the Colymar clan that got
>eaten when trying to cross near Centaur's Cross.

Have you ever wondered: how did the Colymar know?

Vendref and Grazers
>>But the Grazers had mythically severed themselves from their former

>No they haven't. This is your supposition, not supported by
>anything published to date.

Have you ever taken a look at the disavowal of their Pentan ancestry, and
the adoption of the Pain Centaur ancestry? How can you say that the Grazers
did not renounce their Pentan/Praxian Pure Horse ties?

>In particular, Arim the Pauper had relations among the Grazers.

So Arim was a Praxian???

>>>>Not that the Pure
>>>>Horse people had been dominant during the last centuries in Prax...

>>> Still doesn't preclude them from knowing the value of helots.

>>Only from having them, and from knowing how to treat them.

>A mere 70 years!

Actually, already in the late 920s Jaldon led the beast nomads from the
Wastes to Pavis and surroundings, and the Pure Horse people's hold on the
fertile parts of northern and western Prax weakened. By 1237, they were only
a small portion of the Praxian army which was defeated by Gerak Kag's troll
invasion. Their power over oasis folk cannot have been significant...

>>>>>and have tales about when they were Princes in Pavis.

>>>>Not exactly. Joraz Kyrem split off from the Pure Horse tribe.

>>> I doubt this. I think that he combined the leadership of the
>>> Pure Horse Tribe, the Zebra Riders and the City of Pavis in
>>> his hands.

>>Then what's the point in creating the zebras if he kept the horses?

>So he could partake in the rites of the Paps?

>>> Furthermore no dissension with Joraz is noted when the
>>> Zebras were created so I doubt that it was such a big deal.
>>> After all the purity of the Pure Horse People is still intact.
>>The cross-breeding left the purity undamaged? A strange concept.
>The purity of the horses who were not cross-bred with zebras.
>Note that to create the cavalry Zebra, one needs a horse as
>cavalry zebras themselves are sterile. Ergo the Zebra tribe
>needs horses and the only supply of horses in Prax at the time

>is the Pure Horse People.

Or herds kept by Joraz' people who joined Joraz' transformation into
the zebra tribe.

>>>>Because these slaves dig up the very best pastures to do so.

>>> Who said they are digging up the best pastures? The Vendref
>>> farm where the Grazers tell them to.

>>In that case it's a wonder they harvest anything. What do horse riders
>>know about where to farm?

>There is plenty of space in the Grazelands for the Horse People
>to take the best pastures for themselves and the Vendref to
>farm the second best material. They occupy a river valley and
>have a lower population than hilly Sartar of the same size.

I have wondered about that population figure. Does it represent Grazers and
Vendref, or only the Grazer tribes?

I still see the cohabitation of Grazers and Vendref like that of cattle
ranchers and farmers in Texas, i.e. very difficult because both parties want
the same ressources (springs, fat soil) for their exclusive use. The nomads
demand free passage through valleys etc, too, and the Vendref can't stop them.

>>if southern raids were as regular an exercise as
>>Gloranthan Military Experience suggests, nobody would have mentioned

>Yes but the Grazer raids on Sartar and other places are hardly as
>genocidal as that which you postulate for "Esrolia-north-of-the-

I don't claim genocide. I claim abduction and expulsion, granted with a fair
share of casualties, but no outright murder of all of the inhabitants there.

>To completely depopulate the people of this land
>is a major operation one which would have been noted in the
>Grazers King List.

If it had been a single campaign, yes. As a gradual process over a century
or so, no.

>Therefore IMO the land north of the Shadow's
>Plateau was a no-mans-land dominated by Trolls and Beastmen.

I don't see beastmen straying south in large numbers.

>[Resettling the farmers of the lands north of the Building Wall:]

>>>>There are always the slum quarters of Nochet, and other cities.
>>> They are transformed from productive farmers to proles. That is
>>> going to put a huge crimp on Esrola's grain surplus.

>>Happens all the time, anyway. I suppose that occasional outbreaks of
>>fire, violence, or plague keep the city population manageable.

>Really? When was the last time people had massive population
>movements into Nochet on this scale?

1605, after the Building Wall Battle which yielded another part of the
marches to the raiders from the north in exchange for a reliable border.

1614, after Greymane's First Raid.

1616, after the massive wolf pirate raids on the coastal and riverine

1618, after Greymane's Second Raid.

1622, after the defeat of the Red Earth faction.

>Assuming Sartarite population
>densities, that's something like 50 000+ people and Nochet only
>has 100 000!

IMO an estimate of 30,000 would be correct. Some thousands would have been
enslaved or slain, some thousands would have fled just south of the border
(amking the situation difficult there), and some thousand would have fled to

>Whereas the Esrolians if they had stayed there
>could have weathered what ever depradations that the Grazers
>could have visited on them.

by becoming Vendref?

>>Tarsh was founded to stop the Lunar advance (roughly at the Death Line).

>Nope. When Arim the Pauper crossed in 1330 or so, the Lunars
>had not even conquered Mirin's Cross.

Arim entered DP after the conquering daughter had conquered Holay, according
to CHDP. The date is given as "around 1330", which may mean 1340 as well,
given Densesros' accuracy in the case of the Colymar.

>>The following years regularly saw action between both sides. Only Sheng
>>Seleris' interlude stopped the Lunars from expanding (replaced that
>>threat with Pentan raiders...).

>Your history is skewed. The date of the Daughter's Road is 1333
>to 1349 ST in which the Conquering Daughter reached Filichet.
>After that time, the Conquering Daughter did not engage in any
>more agressive actions until her death in 1358 ST.

>The Battle of the Falling Hills FWIW occurs in Holay

It occurred just north of the Death Line, well south of Talfort (compare p.129).

>and the
>army was looking for something in a tree groves. It appears
>they were not expecting to fight the Tarshites...

Not yet, I suppose. What else did the army do there?

>>IMO the Grazers started to raid southwards already under Hendroste
>>Goldhand. Hendroste Goldheart or his successors may even have pursued an
>>active resettlement policy from the Marches.

>Hendroste is resettling the grazers where?

Funny question. How many Grazers do you expect in the Esrolian North Marches?

Hendroste is resettling the Esrolian farmers into Grazer territory. It's
pretty pointless to resettle nomads.

>>Apart from ongoing internal problems in Heortland, a major Lunar
>>invasion was turned only by surprise magics.

>The Falling Hills takes place in Holay and is not a Lunar
>Invasion by any stretch of the imagination.

What did a large Lunar army do just north of the Deathline? Make a picknick?

>>Even if
>>Belintar's army was good, it didn't take the offensive.

>I submit lack of any evidence about the History of the Holy
>Country in the relevant period precludes us from stating
>whether the Holy Country was offensive or not.

Or whether it was more effective than in 1616..


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