Grazers and Vendref

From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Sun 03 May 1998 - 10:36:42 EEST

Joerg Baumgartner:

>>>But the Grazers had mythically severed themselves from their former

>>No they haven't. This is your supposition, not supported by
>>anything published to date.

>Have you ever taken a look at the disavowal of their Pentan ancestry, and
>the adoption of the Pain Centaur ancestry? How can you say that the Grazers
>did not renounce their Pentan/Praxian Pure Horse ties?

Why is it that given that some Grazers are descended from Pain
Centaurs, the Grazers must change their rites and myths, completely
forget their former history (to the point of Amnesia) and pretend
that they were former centaurs. This is beyond a joke.

>>In particular, Arim the Pauper had relations among the Grazers.

>So Arim was a Praxian???

No. Look at Wyrms Footprints if you don't believe me.

>Actually, already in the late 920s Jaldon led the beast nomads from the
>Wastes to Pavis and surroundings, and the Pure Horse people's hold on the
>fertile parts of northern and western Prax weakened. By 1237, they were only
>a small portion of the Praxian army which was defeated by Gerak Kag's troll
>invasion. Their power over oasis folk cannot have been significant...

They were a major part of the army as noted by the present of the Pure
Horse Founder at the battle. No other tribal founder was there.

>>Ergo the Zebra tribe needs horses and the only supply of horses in
>>Prax at the time is the Pure Horse People.

>Or herds kept by Joraz' people who joined Joraz' transformation into
>the zebra tribe.

So why couldn't these herds practiced the Pure Horse Rites?

>>Yes but the Grazer raids on Sartar and other places are hardly as
>>genocidal as that which you postulate for "Esrolia-north-of-the-

>I don't claim genocide. I claim abduction and expulsion, granted with
>a fair share of casualties, but no outright murder of all of the
>inhabitants there.

A rose by any other name smells as sweet. And besides what's the
moral difference between casualties from ethnic cleansing and

>>To completely depopulate the people of this land
>>is a major operation one which would have been noted in the
>>Grazers King List.

>If it had been a single campaign, yes. As a gradual process over a century
>or so, no.

The campaign was between 1325 and 1350 when the border was fixed at
the Stone Cross by Ironhoof and the Pharaoh. You have not contested
this. Now when pointing out the logistical absurdities, you now
feel the need to claim that it was a gradual campaign over a century.
Could you tell us then when the Grazers expanded close to the building

>>Whereas the Esrolians if they had stayed there
>>could have weathered what ever depradations that the Grazers
>>could have visited on them.

>by becoming Vendref?

Nope. By being Esrolians and praticing traditional defensive patterns.
The Rinliddi survived the Pentans using similar tactics. Also reprisals
by the Pharaoh into grazer territory helps matters.

>>>IMO the Grazers started to raid southwards already under Hendroste
>>>Goldhand. Hendroste Goldheart or his successors may even have pursued
>>>an active resettlement policy from the Marches.

>>Hendroste is resettling the grazers where?

>Funny question. How many Grazers do you expect in the Esrolian North Marches?

Before you go around calling questions funny or calling people
rocks because they aren't convinced of your arguments, perhaps
you should look to your own writings and see whether they are
capable of causing any ambiguity.

>Hendroste is resettling the Esrolian farmers into Grazer territory. It's
>pretty pointless to resettle nomads.

And so it was pointless of the EWF to settle the Pure Horse People
in Prax and the remants of the Pure Horse People to settle themselves
in Dragon Pass? Can you appreciate the ambiguity in your words?

>>the disappearance of Esrolians under grazer massacres
>or slave raids, neglect of defense? Other border regions close to horse
>nomads have been depopulated in both RW history and Gloranthan history -
>think of the eastern Arcos Valley, where the Sultanate of Oraya was founded
>with the resettlement of that land.

The Acos region had been depopulated by Sheng Seleris. You OTOH
deny that the grazers practice anything so extreme.

>ALso read Tales #13, p.28:

>You can hardly accuse me of having made up a former habitation of the lands
>north of the Building Wall all on my own...

You were extending Esrolia to include lands north of the Shadow
Plateau which I think is absurd. If you had meant some place like
the Runnel river then I would have not objected (but it wouldn't
fit with your postulated origin for the Colymar).

- --Peter Metcalfe


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