Superclans

From: Peter Metcalfe (metcalph@voyager.co.nz)
Date: Sun 03 May 1998 - 15:06:08 EEST


Joerg Baumgartner:

>>Which does not in of itself require [the Hendriki] to be the largest
>>tribe with the other three being 'relics'. We hardly know any of the
>>tarshite clan and tribe names but it does not mean that we have
>>to expand those we do know of into supertribes.

>The Genertela Book says "four large tribes". It also says "Population
>500,000".

And because you thinks four tribes of 100,000 each is strange, you
wish to replace it with one tribe of 350,000 and three other tribes
mere 'relics'. That is what I was criticizing when I said supertribes.

>Anyway, if you disagree with my conclusions, give me a model which allows
>the Hendriki tribe to dominate the cities of Jansholm, Backford, Durengard
>(the capital) and Duchamp, and possibly the port cities of Leskos and Vizel
>as well, without exceeding Sartarite tribal size by one order of magnitude
>at least.

_If_ I am going to do so, I will need evidence that the Hendriki
dominate all those cities. So far I have not seen any evidence
for that and thus I don't see the need in trying.

>If you agree that the tribes of Heortland may have about 80,000 to 120,000
>members each (or even as few as 30,000), tell me how large the next level of
>organisation would be, and how you call it.

The Kingdom obviously.

>Tell me how large a clan would be.

The same as a normal sartarite clan.

>Don't tell me that all of Heortland is organized like Sartar, because that
>doesn't work.

Don't create strawman, Joerg. I stated further on that they
used malkioni methods of rule. You even responded to that!

>>>Then how do you organize a single tribe with 100,000 or so members? In
>>>clans of 3,000 to 5,000 members?

>>Not unusual.

>A tribe with 100,000 members and clans the size of Sartarite or Aggarite
>tribes is not unusual?

Where did you get the information on the Aggarite tribes? But
more to the point, a 100 000 strong tribes means that we have
25 clans of 4 000 each. I do not believe this to beyond the
capabilities of malkioni administrators at the tribal level.

>>Tarsh was a Tribe in Arim's Day

>How was it organized?

A tribal government over the clans apparently.

>>and really only became a Kingdom in the days of Yarandros.

>What are your sources for this???

KoS p118. Look it up if you don't believe me.

>>I suspect the population in those days was between 100 000 to 200 000.

>IMO Tarsh was a tribal confederation rather than a tribe in the Heortling
>sense.

The Tarshites _are_ Heortlings and said to be formed from the uniting
of clans (KoS p117). Arim is explicitly called a king _and_ not a
Prince/Warlord which he would be _if_ Tarsh was a tribal confederation.

>>Furthermore the Hendriki
>>do not use traditional orlanthi methods to organize their tribes

>The Hendriki are one tribe. The one with the dominant western influences.
>The other tribes are more traditional Orlanthi, though not necessarily all
>of the same detail structure as are the Sartarite tribes.

Source for all this? If it is your campaign, then I am not going
to take this debate any further as I am only prepared to discuss
published information in this debate.

>>but rely on Malkioni methods of rule (ie instead of clan councils, you
>>have a noble to tell people what to do).

>The Hendriki are also said to be the most freedom-loving tribe of all
>Orlanthi. They won't have (much) thraldom, and they won't let a feudal
>system keep them from taking part in moots, and from having councils with
>real power to influence decisions.

Source for all this? Everything I've seen says the Heortlanders
are western influenced.

>>But the neighbouring Sartarites came from Heortland and
>>would have also formed the superclans, would they not?

>IMO the over-clans only work with a) a long tradition to back them up, and
>b) a geography which doesn't isolate single clans from all contact with
>other clans.

One notes that Quivini geopgraphy does not isolate single clans
from contact with all other clans. In the absence of any
documentation for the superclans, I am inclined to reject their
existance for Heortland.

>I still fail to see why it is wrong to have O'Neills on both sides of the
>Irish Sea, i.e. to have clan-sized groups identifying themselves as e.g.
>Orshanti in somewhat separate locales.

Because the O'Neills are not Orlanthi and such is not shown in
the Report on the Orlanthi.

>>and that the Colymar clan (when it crossed the line) is an
>>example of this.

>That the Colymar is an example of part of a splinter clan separated
>from the majority of its clan.

It also took in large numbers of people from other clans as
you acknowlege. I doubt these were in the minority. Furthermore
there was ten years of unhampered growth which would have done
wonders for population growth.

>>Given that _all_ tribes and clans (not just the Malani) who have migrated
>>north are from Heortland, why then have none of these tribes and clans
>>the super-clans and sub-clans that you postulate?

>Because no full clans migrated northward, but only splinters?

True for the First Wave but _not_ the Second Wave according
to the Colymar's Book. Ergo your thesis fails.

>>Unless they are members of the tribe. And your postulated super-
>>and sub-clans does little to stop this as the hostilities will
>>now occur between the sub-clans...

>But it is harder to continue hostilities while you visit the same temples.

Au Contaire. The subclans will have their _own_ temples. Thus
they will not visit the same temples.

>Or, after being separated by the tides of warfare and transhumant
>resettlement, through other clans' lands.

In which case the subclan leaves the clan.

>>The Colymar's own History makes this claim.

>Written at a time when the Colymar tribe sought to regain the favours of
>Prince Sartar lost when Ortossi denied him to build a city in Colymar land.
>Claiming a distant kinship may have been helpful.

As I have said before, I see little need to traduce it as an invented
fiction. You have not shown clear reasons why we should do so and
your proposed solution involves problem-riddled hypotheses.

>>(namely the required existance of hitherto unheard of subclans,

>like the Karandoli of Pavis city?

Who were not counted by the Colymar themselves as being a clan at
the time. Nor did the worship of their ancestors make themselves
known to the Colymar tribe.

>Let me see if I understand you correctly: you have sub-tribes within tribes,
>and I have sub-clans within clans. If I shift my terminology from
> sub-clan -> clan -> tribe
>to
> clan -> sub-tribe -> tribe
>you'll be happy?

Yes. But I should point out this screws up your theory for the
Colymar's origins (Orshanti clan of the Hendriki tribe).

- --Peter Metcalfe

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