From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Sun 03 May 1998 - 15:06:08 EEST

Joerg Baumgartner:

>>Which does not in of itself require [the Hendriki] to be the largest
>>tribe with the other three being 'relics'. We hardly know any of the
>>tarshite clan and tribe names but it does not mean that we have
>>to expand those we do know of into supertribes.

>The Genertela Book says "four large tribes". It also says "Population

And because you thinks four tribes of 100,000 each is strange, you
wish to replace it with one tribe of 350,000 and three other tribes
mere 'relics'. That is what I was criticizing when I said supertribes.

>Anyway, if you disagree with my conclusions, give me a model which allows
>the Hendriki tribe to dominate the cities of Jansholm, Backford, Durengard
>(the capital) and Duchamp, and possibly the port cities of Leskos and Vizel
>as well, without exceeding Sartarite tribal size by one order of magnitude
>at least.

_If_ I am going to do so, I will need evidence that the Hendriki
dominate all those cities. So far I have not seen any evidence
for that and thus I don't see the need in trying.

>If you agree that the tribes of Heortland may have about 80,000 to 120,000
>members each (or even as few as 30,000), tell me how large the next level of
>organisation would be, and how you call it.

The Kingdom obviously.

>Tell me how large a clan would be.

The same as a normal sartarite clan.

>Don't tell me that all of Heortland is organized like Sartar, because that
>doesn't work.

Don't create strawman, Joerg. I stated further on that they
used malkioni methods of rule. You even responded to that!

>>>Then how do you organize a single tribe with 100,000 or so members? In
>>>clans of 3,000 to 5,000 members?

>>Not unusual.

>A tribe with 100,000 members and clans the size of Sartarite or Aggarite
>tribes is not unusual?

Where did you get the information on the Aggarite tribes? But
more to the point, a 100 000 strong tribes means that we have
25 clans of 4 000 each. I do not believe this to beyond the
capabilities of malkioni administrators at the tribal level.

>>Tarsh was a Tribe in Arim's Day

>How was it organized?

A tribal government over the clans apparently.

>>and really only became a Kingdom in the days of Yarandros.

>What are your sources for this???

KoS p118. Look it up if you don't believe me.

>>I suspect the population in those days was between 100 000 to 200 000.

>IMO Tarsh was a tribal confederation rather than a tribe in the Heortling

The Tarshites _are_ Heortlings and said to be formed from the uniting
of clans (KoS p117). Arim is explicitly called a king _and_ not a
Prince/Warlord which he would be _if_ Tarsh was a tribal confederation.

>>Furthermore the Hendriki
>>do not use traditional orlanthi methods to organize their tribes

>The Hendriki are one tribe. The one with the dominant western influences.
>The other tribes are more traditional Orlanthi, though not necessarily all
>of the same detail structure as are the Sartarite tribes.

Source for all this? If it is your campaign, then I am not going
to take this debate any further as I am only prepared to discuss
published information in this debate.

>>but rely on Malkioni methods of rule (ie instead of clan councils, you
>>have a noble to tell people what to do).

>The Hendriki are also said to be the most freedom-loving tribe of all
>Orlanthi. They won't have (much) thraldom, and they won't let a feudal
>system keep them from taking part in moots, and from having councils with
>real power to influence decisions.

Source for all this? Everything I've seen says the Heortlanders
are western influenced.

>>But the neighbouring Sartarites came from Heortland and
>>would have also formed the superclans, would they not?

>IMO the over-clans only work with a) a long tradition to back them up, and
>b) a geography which doesn't isolate single clans from all contact with
>other clans.

One notes that Quivini geopgraphy does not isolate single clans
from contact with all other clans. In the absence of any
documentation for the superclans, I am inclined to reject their
existance for Heortland.

>I still fail to see why it is wrong to have O'Neills on both sides of the
>Irish Sea, i.e. to have clan-sized groups identifying themselves as e.g.
>Orshanti in somewhat separate locales.

Because the O'Neills are not Orlanthi and such is not shown in
the Report on the Orlanthi.

>>and that the Colymar clan (when it crossed the line) is an
>>example of this.

>That the Colymar is an example of part of a splinter clan separated
>from the majority of its clan.

It also took in large numbers of people from other clans as
you acknowlege. I doubt these were in the minority. Furthermore
there was ten years of unhampered growth which would have done
wonders for population growth.

>>Given that _all_ tribes and clans (not just the Malani) who have migrated
>>north are from Heortland, why then have none of these tribes and clans
>>the super-clans and sub-clans that you postulate?

>Because no full clans migrated northward, but only splinters?

True for the First Wave but _not_ the Second Wave according
to the Colymar's Book. Ergo your thesis fails.

>>Unless they are members of the tribe. And your postulated super-
>>and sub-clans does little to stop this as the hostilities will
>>now occur between the sub-clans...

>But it is harder to continue hostilities while you visit the same temples.

Au Contaire. The subclans will have their _own_ temples. Thus
they will not visit the same temples.

>Or, after being separated by the tides of warfare and transhumant
>resettlement, through other clans' lands.

In which case the subclan leaves the clan.

>>The Colymar's own History makes this claim.

>Written at a time when the Colymar tribe sought to regain the favours of
>Prince Sartar lost when Ortossi denied him to build a city in Colymar land.
>Claiming a distant kinship may have been helpful.

As I have said before, I see little need to traduce it as an invented
fiction. You have not shown clear reasons why we should do so and
your proposed solution involves problem-riddled hypotheses.

>>(namely the required existance of hitherto unheard of subclans,

>like the Karandoli of Pavis city?

Who were not counted by the Colymar themselves as being a clan at
the time. Nor did the worship of their ancestors make themselves
known to the Colymar tribe.

>Let me see if I understand you correctly: you have sub-tribes within tribes,
>and I have sub-clans within clans. If I shift my terminology from
> sub-clan -> clan -> tribe
> clan -> sub-tribe -> tribe
>you'll be happy?

Yes. But I should point out this screws up your theory for the
Colymar's origins (Orshanti clan of the Hendriki tribe).

- --Peter Metcalfe


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