Re: The Glorantha Digest V5 #587

From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Sun 03 May 1998 - 16:33:00 EEST

>Wrong. I used the map to point out that the Heortlanders were
>part of the Jrusteli Empire at one point or another.

E.g. during the Machine Wars, when part of their land was behind the
frontlines for a while.

My claim that Heortland might as well have been a friendly trade partner of
the Jrusteli merchants around 560 isn't disproven. Your claim fails to

provide decisive sources as well. Let's sit this out until the new stuff is out.

>We don't know if the Zistorite invasion of Esrolia was successful.

One gets the impression from KoS p.95 that it did meet some success.

As for Nochet, _you_ claimed that the God Learners worked from within.

Stygian Temple

>Why would he include a description of the City at all?

Because it's the most important centre of power for the cult (at least in
the region).

>He wrote it for the rulers of Esrolia and including a description
>of the wondrous city was to show that conversion to darkness
>would mean an increase in cultural sophistication. As for not
>mentioning the temple, the City of Black Glass is a big place.

>We have no indication that the God Learners ever managed to hold
>Esrolia for long. Thus I doubt the existance of a purge.

Hey, the Lunars purged the Holy Country of the House of Sartar long before
they conquered even parts of it.

We know that the God Learners purged as much of the cult of Arkat as they
could, IMO even when Arkat only was an ally fondly remembered.

>The City is a big place. I think it covered the entire plateau
>and had various settlements in it like Pavis does.

The city was a big place even with a fairly small ground area (say of the
size of the Big Rubble) since it extended into the third dimension. If it
covered the entire plateau, it could have held all the population of
Kethaela in times of crisis.

Re: "Darkness rule contains no treachery":

>But the OOO wasn't basing the legitimacy of his rule over the
>Shadowlands from Arkat then. He inherited the land from his
>pop. So what need to defend Arkat?

Because Arkat's reign was the parade example for the treachery of Darkness.
But I said that before...

Old Day Traditionalists
>But the OOO paid tribute to the EWF. If he is helping the ODT
>as you appear to be suggesting, Mr EWF is going to get very mad.

If he fails to suppress their way of life, one may regard this as helping
them. I still don't believe that there were was a significantly dominant
portion of draconic worshippers in either Heortland or Kethaela.

>So why couldn't the EWF have made an invasion of the Heortland
>and God Forgot in an attempt to destroy the Machine City?

Because then we would have heard about fearsome dragons attacking the
cities, commanded by Orlanth if you want. Somehow dragons fail to appear in
the reports.

>>Orlanth cutting Zistor open with a tool (aka Mostal) to free Bingista is a
>>replay of the Orlanth and Aroka myth (probably not that popular in the EWF).

>Whatever happened to the Utuma variation?

Not done to another, but to oneself.

>>I still can't see why the ODTs should have moved north only.

>Because the OOO was a pawn of the EWF.

When it just had been founded, and the traditionalists who had fought openly
had been beaten?

Besides, Kethaela has a tradition of allowing any sort of worship in its
borders, even none (God Forgot) or Jrusteli.

>>Not quite. After releasing the Draconic Virus, the Jrusteli aren't recorded
>>to do much for the next two centuries. They aren't even mentioned in Geolgin
>>Askarios' texts (admittedly on the subject of trolls, not Nochet).

>Minaryth does mention that Geolgin fought in a war with Slontan

Before the Jrusteli confederation was founded. The Slontans are described as
ancient enemies of Kethaela.

>>BTW: Hrestol Arganitis states that the natives of the CreekStream River
>>laughed at his concerns about humans being ruled by trolls.

>They were laughing for the benefit of the informers.

Next you tell me they all wore blue jumpsuits and strange caps, ducking from
the threat of cultural revolution all the time... get real.

>But seriously
>this is around 700 ST or so at least a century _after_ the Tax
>Slaughter. The EWF would have put pressure on the OOO to be nice
>to them hoomans for a change.

Funny that he is recorded to have had human allies (not just subjects) all
the time.

>>I asked why the OOO would deign to collect taxes in Dragon Pass when he
>>had Esrolia conveniently at his feet.

>>The reports in KoS and Uz Lore name other warlords, from the Troll Woods
>>btw, i.e. not directly from Obsidian Palace.

_After the Dragonkill War_

is not after the Gbaji Wars, and has nothing to do with Arkat's Command. The
OOO is facing an entirely new situation.

>>> Furthermore Esrolia wasn't becoming densely populated until
>>> the second age.

>>Sez who?

>Broken Council Guidebook. The City of Nochet has not yet
>achieved the distinction of being a major metropolis it
>has now. Hence I believe the population is somewhat lower
>than is now.

The city of Athens grew without Attica becoming more densely settled (in
fact, it was depopulated during that growth). BCG says that Nochet began to
grow rapidly when the Waertagi made it a preferred trading place.

>>The river mud might be manageable with Barntar plows.

>Why use plows when you can make paddies?

Because Esrolia is not one of the rice-producing countries of Genertela.
They grow wheat and oats, not exactly grains usually grown in paddies.

>>Fishing and water fowl provide additional
>>sources of food, so that they didn't have to settle apart from each
>>other to find optimal farming conditions [...].

>Which are hardly primary sources of food.

This would surprise the Pelaskites among their population.

>>Arkat was harsh, and single-minded about Gbaji.

>He was also manifestly unfair in the case of the Heortlings.

And in the case of the Dara Happans, the East Ralians, and numerous others.
I don't think he was fair (in the sense of "nice") to the trolls, either.

>>Anyway, the way he set up the command, the Heortlings had Dara Happa to
>>bleed in order to pay the Command to the trolls.

>_If_ true (and I doubt it), it still means that he is punishing the
>Heortlings by make them subjects of the Uz.


>>Human flesh? Bollocks, if you excuse me.

>Why? Surely Joerg has not heard of the tribute that the Athenians
>had to pay to King Minos?

Which received ample mention. So you believe that the Mostali regularly
delivered dwarfs to be eaten, and the aldryami regularly delivered a
regiment of their number? In that case it really makes me wonder that the
Orlanthi didn't fight before 120 years had gone by.

>Since it is well known that trolls eat people, then what
>is ludicrous about an odious tax being paid in human flesh?

>Why else would the Heortlings revolt?

Such a tax would have led to (a series of) revolts within years.

>And the Praxians are not placed under Arkat's Command?

They simply moved away when the trolls wanted part of their herds. (Which is
what they wanted from the Orlanthi as well.)

>>There was a King of Heortland, a title formerly assigned to the High
>>King, and after Arkat had liberated Kerofinela and Kethaela, to the
>>Hendriki king.

>The King of Heortland is a seperate entity from the King of the
>Heortlings. Heortland was so named because King Heort came from

Heortland was the land of the Heortlings, and covered Kerofinela and
southern Peloria. King Heort came from that Heortland... Over time, the
definition of Heortland changed, and the Dragonkill War at latest
constrained the definition on the eastern part of Kethaela.

There are old, unpublished maps which show a tribe called Gansavuli in
Heortland, but AFAIK most if not all of modern Heortland (temporally known
as Kingdom of Malkonwal) was uninhabited before the Hendriki came to settle
there. I'd like to see evidence to the contrary, though...


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