From: Peter Metcalfe (
Date: Wed 06 May 1998 - 03:16:34 EEST

Joerg Baumgartner:

>>We don't know if the Zistorite invasion of Esrolia was successful.

>One gets the impression from KoS p.95 that it did meet some success.

We are merely given a description of what he looked like and what he
did when the God Learners invaded Esrolia. We have no idea of the
countermeasures taken nor the final result of the war. All we do
know is that the EWF fought on the other side.

>As for Nochet, _you_ claimed that the God Learners worked from

I said there was a population of Malkioni there. I never said
it came there by invasion.

>>We have no indication that the God Learners ever managed to hold
>>Esrolia for long. Thus I doubt the existance of a purge [of
>>OOO influences in Nochet].

>Hey, the Lunars purged the Holy Country of the House of Sartar long
>before they conquered even parts of it.

And they missed Prince Temertain whom one suspects would have been
the _easiest_ person to terminate with extreme prejudice.

>We know that the God Learners purged as much of the cult of Arkat as they
>could, IMO even when Arkat only was an ally fondly remembered.

So why is there still a Cult of Black Arkat in Heortland?

>>So why couldn't the EWF have made an invasion of the Heortland
>>and God Forgot in an attempt to destroy the Machine City?

>Because then we would have heard about fearsome dragons attacking the
>cities, commanded by Orlanth if you want. Somehow dragons fail to appear
>in the reports.

Note that the sources speak of the Elder Races uniting. The
Dragonewts (an Elder Race the last time I looked) are conspicious
by their absense.

>>>Orlanth cutting Zistor open with a tool (aka Mostal) to free
>>>Bingista is a replay of the Orlanth and Aroka myth (probably
>>>not that popular in the EWF).

Me>>Whatever happened to the Utuma variation?

>Not done to another, but to oneself.

        'Then the Dragon Emperor of humans was confronted by an
        evil spirit named Utuma who slew him'.
                                         KoS p188.

Likewise see Nick Brooke's Webpages for how the Red Goddess
had undergone the Utuma sacrifice (with the agent being

>>They were laughing for the benefit of the informers.

>Next you tell me they all wore blue jumpsuits and strange caps, ducking from
>the threat of cultural revolution all the time... get real.

>>But seriously

Surely 'But seriously' would have informed you that the preceding
sentence was a joke?

>>this is around 700 ST or so at least a century _after_ the Tax
>>Slaughter. The EWF would have put pressure on the OOO to be nice
>>to them hoomans for a change.

>Funny that he is recorded to have had human allies (not just subjects)
>all the time.

I'll bite. What are the human allies that he had after Arkat's War
and where are they mentioned?

>>>I asked why the OOO would deign to collect taxes in Dragon Pass when he
>>>had Esrolia conveniently at his feet.

>>>The reports in KoS and Uz Lore name other warlords, from the Troll Woods
>>>btw, i.e. not directly from Obsidian Palace.

After I quoted the RQ Companion to show that the OOO _had_ contested
the rule of Dragon Pass, Joerg deletes this without acknowlegement
and then changes the goalposts!

>_After the Dragonkill War_

>is not after the Gbaji Wars, and has nothing to do with Arkat's Command. The
>OOO is facing an entirely new situation.

Yes, but I quoted it to show that the OOO was capable of having
interests in Dragon Pass which is something you _denied_. I've

not even seen a reasonable explanation of why the Uz Lore quote
which showed that the Shadowlands fought in the Tax Slaughter is
wrong and I quoted that last week.

>>The City of Nochet has not yet achieved the distinction of being
>>a major metropolis it has now. Hence I believe the population
>>[of Esrolia] is somewhat lower [in the first age] than is now.

>The city of Athens grew without Attica becoming more densely settled (in
>fact, it was depopulated during that growth).

If this is a reference to the Peloponesian War then Joerg should
be aware that this is by no means comparable to the model posted
for Nochet (to wit: it increased in population as Esrolia itself

>BCG says that Nochet began to
>grow rapidly when the Waertagi made it a preferred trading place.

And there is a limit to the size of the urban population in
Esrolia based on the surplus grain. No matter how much trade
passes through it, Nochet is still dependent on the grain of

>>>Fishing and water fowl provide additional
>>>sources of food, so that they didn't have to settle apart from each
>>>other to find optimal farming conditions [...].
>>Which are hardly primary sources of food.

>This would surprise the Pelaskites among their population.

I was speaking of the farming community as anyone can infer from the
context. The farmers are going to derive most of their food from
their crops and not fishing and water fowl.

>The Lhankor Mhy library in Nochet has been accused of being heavily God

Who is saying this?

>This means that there are sources of early Jrusteli origin buried deep
>within the library. If I want to incite scholarly riots, I could just
>claim that valuable knowledge in these sources is withheld from the
>customers of the library.

And why would the Jrusteli lose knowlege of their own sources and be
forced to dig it up in Nochet U? And whatever happened to God Learners
and Grey Sages having a good scrap about the nature of the Gods (cf
digests passim)? That is far more explosive than the allegation that
some documents are being stored that the Jrusteli need to get their
hands on.

>There is no need to involve Malkioni craftsmen or merchants in scholarly
>riots at all.

Strawman. I stated the malkioni population to support a local malkioni
school. It was the teachers of this school that was doing the rioting.
Nowhere have I stated that craftsmen or merchants were involved in the

>Except as victims, in which case the proper term is
>pogrom, and the best use for the God Learners would be to cry out
>against this injustice and lead a crusade to liberate their oppressed
>brethren, and justify an invasion of Esrolia.

Except there were three such riots in Nochet and none of them
coincide with the Esrolian invasion of 842. One even took
place _after_ that crusade.

>The Auld Wyrmish school in Nochet needn't have been a permanent
>institution. Once the Hunting and Waltzing Bands were around teaching
>Draconic for free, there was no profit to be made of such a school, and
>it would cease to exist.

The problem with the H&W bands is that it converts the hearer
to the EWF. The God Learners were intent on getting the secrets
of the EWF and incorporate it into the Monomyth without getting
converted. They persisted even unto the fall of the Empire when
'hundreds of God Learners' are stated to have lost the knowlege
of spoken Auld Wyrmish. So IMO the Draconic School remained in
place and was a centre for reverse-engineering the magical secrets
of the EWF.

- --Peter Metcalfe


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