From: Joerg Baumgartner (
Date: Wed 06 May 1998 - 22:27:00 EEST

I misquoted Wyrm's Footnotes p.22. Sorry, it was from memory; I wrote
this at work, and meant to correct it at home.

Luckily, Peter stands ready to correct me

> 'Among those who fled were some with relations among the
> Grazelanders of Dragon Pass.'

>>The text continues in the same paragraph:

> Wrong. The very _next_ sentence states:

> 'While living in exile among the Horse-tribe, Arim the Pauper met
> Sarana-Tor, High Priestess of the Shaking Earth'.

CHDP details his arrival in Dragon Pass, including his meeting (and
probably helping) a Grazer warrior named Benst Beel.

Peter maintains that Arim's living in exile "among the Horse-tribe"
implies strongly that he had relations there. I never felt this
implication, let alone strongly: Arim is an Orlanthi hero, one of the
Compromise-reenacting founders of a kingdom (tribe, etc) who picked his
allies and enemies. (Other examples are Derek Pol Joni and Sartar)

If there have to be blood relations among the horse-tribe, why not
through the pain-centaurs rather than through a Pentan-become-Praxian
enemy tribe? The centaurs were manufactured by and most likely from
Theyalan humans.

>>After over 200 years of no possible contact with the Pure Horse
>>People in Prax, and little incentive to have before, I doubt
>>that the relations were the horse-riders of the Grazer tribe.

> You are flatly contradicted by the mention that some of the
> immigrants had relations among the grazelanders.

Well, it is clear that Arim arrived in Kerofinela after the Grazers had
started to take slaves from Orlanthi immigrants straying into their

The claim that he was the first to cross the Deathline needn't be
accurate. For what it's worth, he was the first to cross it and tell the

Besides, the source you cite is about contemporary to the history of
Dragon Pass in the boardgame, which states that the EWF ruled from the
Dawn. The Carving of Tarsh was in one of the earliest Footnotes, #2 or
3, entirely dedicated to WB&RM.

> Little more can be added save that the Orlanthi and the Grazers
> are capable of having geneaologies reaching back more than 300
> years.

For a 1621 Grazer, I'd say about 370 years maximum.

> Why did the Horse people not enslave him then?

IMO because some of the Grazers (Benst Beel?) owed him a debt of
gratitude. Think of J.F.Cooper's English hunter's acceptance among the

> The Pure Horse Tribe taken from the Black
> Net were POWs after the battle and were rescued by Derik Furman
> to populate the Pol Joni Tribe and became Orlanthi worshipping
> Cattle Bastards.

According to private discussion with David Dunham, this is mythical
fiction for the fact that some Grazers were fed up with the sedentary
developments caused by the Vendref, and eager to return to the nomadic
ways of their ancestors.

Danny Bourne:
>>The assumption is that there must have been an indigenous
>>group of Sun (Kargzant) worshipping nomads already in the Grazelands
>>area - which was supposed to be devoid of any humans since the
>>Dragonkill War and that the two factions assimilated.

> I doubt this. The Grazer's King List (KoS p225) cites one Ironhoof
> the King who is not the Centaur

Does it deny the identity explicitely?

> and who is implicitly said not to have been born in Dragon Pass.

Ironhoof the Centaur is said to have been born as a relative of Yelm
(prpbably through Hippogriff), hence his horse-stopping powers in Dragon
Pass boardgame/WB&RM.

> IMO the indigenous group was the
> Pain Centaurs who had met with the Grazers and then quested to be
> like them.

<prepare grand orchestra, play the intro of "Also Sprach Zarathustra":>


that the most likely origin for an indigenous group of horse riders
would have been a small group of pain centaurs. I'm not so sure about
cause and effect, but that's a secondary issue.

> Nevertheless some memories of those events still remain. The
> FHQ gained her powers after found her 'sisters, who had been
> missing for many years.'

The FHQ is described as a foreign priestess in Dragon Pass/WB&RM. She
became active in the Pass around the time when Sheng's nomads held much
of Peloria, and all of the Redlands.

The missing sisters she found have been identified as Esrolian earth
goddesses in previous discussions.


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:16:50 EEST