Burning Strawmen pt. 1: ODT, Heortland

From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@toppoint.de)
Date: Wed 06 May 1998 - 22:27:00 EEST

Peter Metcalfe continues point-by-point. Including my replies, this file
has reached 19 kByte, so I'll try to cut the quotes...

Old Day Traditionalists

I asked for
>>proof that the Old Day Traditionalists
>>were a localized Aggar/Talastar phenomenon.

> Strawman. I actually stated they were prevalent in South Peloria and
> said that Talastar was their centre.

Peter was also adamant that there weren't any to speak of in Kethaela. I
haven't seen proof for any local concentration of ODTs.

> How Joerg manages to twists this
> into a claim of a 'localized Aggar/Talastar phenomenon' is beyond me.

Look at the map. Of 925 (when the revolt took place) the EWF had lost
most of South Peloria, except Talastar, Aggar, and Kerofinela. (Holay
seems to have been divided between Saird and the EWF, and the current
battle ground). This means that any traditionalists living there would
have had their problems solved already.

If Peter wants to include Kerofinela, I can't see why oh why Kethaela
would be anathema to them.


I defined Heortland as the land of the Heortlings, covering Kerofinela
and southern Peloria.

> Cite?

Previous discussions, partly in private. It seems like a fair definition
of the term, doesn't it?

Peter quotes Arkat summoning Silver Age heroes (RQ Companion p.22).

> Tessele is a Caladralander Heroine, Vogarth has been stated by
> Stevie to be Esrolian. Ergo Heort comes from Heortland.

In which borders? Of course Heort came from Heortland.

> What? You have seen maps that place the Gansavuli in Heortland and
> you want me to front up with more evidence?

Because the map seems to be about as old as Hrestol's Saga. And we all
know that old statements may be subject to a change of mind...

I also had the impression that the map showed Vingkotling tribes prior
to the I Fought We Won. Not all of them made it into the Dawn Age.

> Where do you get the idea that Heortland was completely
> unoccupied before the Hendrieki?

If you ask Shannon Appel, Heortland was a Chaos Waste prior to Hendriki
settlement (cf. discussion on the digest a few moons ago, or his
excellent "History of the Kingdom of Night" appearing soon in Tradetalk
#4). I'm a moderate...

> ToTRM#7 (p48) merely says 'So many people fled to the Stormwalk
> mountains that a new tribe, the Hendriki, was formed from their
> refugees'.

Thanks for the reference. No new information there, though.

> why could the Machine City not have dominated the people
> of Heortland from the time of its founding to the Machine City
> Wars?

IMO the cities of Locsil, Jadnor and Lylket were founded soon after
Hrestol Arganitis explored Dragon Pass. I prefer to think that the
cities were established with a modicum of treaties rather than planted
there through brute force, and only slowly began to corrupt the
surrounding lands (none as bad as Locsil, though).

>>My claim that Heortland might as well have been a friendly trade
>>partner of the Jrusteli merchants around 560 isn't disproven.

> I don't think it's why Heortland was marked in as 'Jrusteli
> Empire or Ally'.

That's where opinions clash, and proofs fail. I do. I regard the map as
clsoe to a momentary view during the middle of the 2nd Age.

> It's just
> that I fail to see why the Jrusteli should _not_ have dominated
> the people of Heortland at their zenith which _appears_ to be
> your belief.

>From KoS I get the impression that the captivity of Bingista was a
matter of years, not a century.

I give the sources for my impression that the Hendriki are one of four
civilized Orlanthi tribes in Heortland. (Genertela Book, Maniria: Places
of Interest, Heortland)

>>This is quite explicite to me: Four large tribes, one of which has
>>accepted Malkioni traits. Three haven't.

> Read on. The source also goes on to say:

:Instead of "thanes", the _Hendreiki_ warriors are called "knights",
:and are armed to fight in the same manner as their western overlords.
:But _Heortland_'s knights are not a class of nobles, just another
:class of the free classes (my emphasis-PHM).

Where were you when I fought the establishment wars for the Aeolian
Church of Heortland? I could have used your emphasis then!

I never expected to be chastised for moderating my impression on how
pervasive the Malkioni influence in Heortland was.

To address your question: None of the Sartarite warriors are called
knights. This indicates that they didn't share the Malkioni influence
when they emigrated.

> Given that:

> 1) _All_ the tribes of Heortland are 'civilized Orlanthi'.

Defined in Genertela Players Book as "tribal" organisation.

> 2) Heortland and Hendreiki are used interchangeably.

If the Hendriki knights are the only knights in Heortland, there is no
reason not to interchange the terms.

> 3) The Hendreiki tribe originally inhabited the region now inhabited
> by four main tribes.

And we all know that after the assassinations of 1042, and before the
Golden Horde, a lot of people from Dragon Pass took refuge in Kethaela.
IMO that is the time when the other three tribes established themselves
in Heortland.

Let me see if I understand Peter's approach: The Hendriki took in all
the refugees after the fall of the EWF and integrated them in their
somewhat feudal system. Then, when Belintar crops up almost 300 years
later, the old people remember the good old time and ditch the traces of
Malkionism, and march off into Dragon Pass. At some unknown date, the
Hendriki tribe falls apart into four separate tribes, all feudal.

You know, this is fairly close to my starting position in 1993/94. I let
myself be convinced to a compromise solution after almost a year of
heated debates, including Greggings. And now I find myself on the other


Peter complains:
> I cannot read the stuff on your webpage because you use frames

which is why I provide a table of contents listing each frame component.
Since frames do nothing but put together several web-pages into one
browser window, you should be able to access all parts of my page from


> the other browser refuses to load at all for some exotic reason.

Might be the distance involved. Now and then I have difficulties with
pages Down Under as well.


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