The Scientific Method

From: Pam Carlson (carlsonp@wolfenet.com)
Date: Mon 11 May 1998 - 06:00:03 EEST


Paul W. writes of the scientific method::
>
> So in other words, you observe a phenomenon, posit a theory about the
> phenomenon, experiment, and then you either have proven or disproved
> your hypothesis (to some extent).

Close - but scientific theories are technically NEVER proven; they can only
be disproven by finding an example (through observation or experimentation)
that does not fit the original theory (model). Then you refine the model,
or toss it out if the fit is too poor.

Some theories have failed to be falsified for so long that they are
accepted as fact, (gravity, evolution, continental drift), but even so, a
good scientist is always be willing to modify even well accepted theories
if a true contradiction is found.

Given the confusion over the nature of science that exists in the late 20th
century, it's not surprising that the scientific method wouldn't be found
in Glorantha.

Pam
(I'm a scientist, not a philosopher!)

>
> So scientists do observe (pre-hypothesis and during experimentation)
> but they also predict by making hypotheses. Observation without
> prediction doesn't generate much of any use, while prediction without
> observation is simply guessing. So IMHO a scientist needs to be both an
> observer and a predictor.
>
> Of course, I majored in Slavic Languages so you may be better informed
> than me.
>
> Paul W. Wegner
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:54:48 +0000
> From: "Jane Williams" <jane@williams.nildram.co.uk>
> Subject: Rune Fonts?
>
> Tal Meta asked:
>
> > Is anyone aware of a Truetype RQ Rune font other than Oliver
> > Jovanovic's?
> Well, I made my own before I found his. I may have a copy somewhere, but
> quite frankly his is better. What did you want changing? It all looked

> pretty good to me, and since most of us have it, we can use it in
> documents without being incomprehensible.
>
> > Or, alternatively, a freeware TTF editior (Win31, preferably?)
> Not "free", quite, but what I first used was Corel Draw. You can pick up
> early versions for about a tenner these days, and it does a lot more
> than just fonts. If you want to discuss the technicalities further,
> though, let's go to private email.
>
> (BTW, the ISP have apologised, and the web page is back. On a much faster

> server!)
>
> Jane Williams jane@williams.nildram.co.uk
> http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~janewill/gloranth/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 00:20:15 +0200
> From: Thomas Gottschall <Bloodtooth@gmx.net>
> Subject: Help me !
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Again the diabolic software gave me a terrible blow. When I
> last time downloaded my messages Netscape 4 managed it to
> destroy the text upon arrival. Only the subjects and the
> size was still left. So please, everyone who has sent me a
> message (Jon S Green and a fellow who has sent me over 500KB
> with the subject Telmori) please resend them.
>
> Thanks and sorry for this ungloranthan post.
>
> - --
> bye, Thomas
>
> Email : Bloodtooth@gmx.net
> Enchanted Forest : http://home.pages.de/~Enchanted.Forest/
>
> And the Devil returned once more. This time his name was...
> - -..Argrath !
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 02:17:07 +0200
> From: Fabian Kuechler <fabian.kuechler@medien.uni-weimar.de>
> Subject: God Learner Secret continued
>
> MoB tells us the story:
>
> > (Much later, when I told Stafford the story, he chuckled and said that,
> > come to think of it, he *could* express the GLS in 5 words, or even 3
if he
> > wanted...)
> >
> and that is how the story continues:
>
> I was strolling past Greg and MoB at Convulsion 1994 and heard what Greg
> was saying (see above). The thing was rolling on in my head until I
> asked Greg at the Lore Auction (Convulsion 1996):
>
> "Greg, at the last Convulsion I heard you say that you could explain the
> God Learner Secret in three words. My question is: Does this three words
> form a complete sentence?"
>
> - -.. and so this topic went of the ground, I guess.
>
> Fabian
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:09:04 +1200 (NZST)
> From: metcalph@voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
> Subject: Nature of Malkioni Saints
>
> Jose Ramos:
>
> NW>>My theory is that Malkioni saints are rather like
> >>mahayana buddhist bodhisattvas
>
> [grumble, grumble, grumble]
>
> >This has the added advantage that in the RW some bodhisattvas have been
> >worshipped as gods, something that happens in henotheist lands too.
>
> This is not really an unique added advantage as Catholic Saints (who
> are most assuredly in Heaven the last time I looked - well save for
> those that don't exist) have sometimes been worshipped as gods as well.
>
>
> Simon Hibbs:
>
> >Malkioni saints remind me vaguely of the bodhisatva of Mahayana
> >Buddhism, who chose not to enter nirvana in order to save others.
>
> And the parallel is flawed because in Mahayana Buddhism, Buddhas
> (and others who have attained Nirvana) can help others. One can
> look at Wu Ch'eng-en's 'Monkey' or the buddhist cults in Land of
> Ninja for examples.

>
> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:21:10 +1200 (NZST)
> From: metcalph@voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
> Subject: Malkionism.
>
> Bill Thompson:
>
> [responding to the statement that all the Brithini who witnessed
> Hrestol's Martyrdom converted]
>
> >To my understanding at the time of Hrestol's martyrdom there should be
> >three main schools of thought. Orthodox Malkionism(as practiced by the
> >Brithini and some others), New Malkionism (as practiced by the
Seshnegi),
> >and The New Hrestoli Way (as practiced by the recent converts of the
> >Prince).
>
> I would not call the Brithini Orthodox Malkioni. IMO the Brithini
> way had been changed during the Darkness under the traumatising
> impact of the Silence (cf Elder Secrets Astromony section and Cults
> of Terror).
>
> The New Malkionism, I generally call Old Malkioni. This faith was
> creaking at the joints at the Dawn and quickly became obsolete after
> Hrestol although you will find a few loons claiming to be immortal
> Old Malkion here and there.
>
> IMO the New Hrestol Way did not really appear until 200 ST and they
> were more of an educated reaction against the Pagan Ways of the
> Serpent Kings which itself stemmed from the relevations of Hrestol.
>
> >It seems to me that whenever there is an overt action of God, be it
> >miracle or disaster. It's interpretation is never agreed upon by
> >different factions. So the Orthodox Malkoni would have seen Joy of
> >the Heart as another example of New Malkoni excess.
>
> I'm not sure that Hrestol's Martyrdom was the Joy of the Heart. But
> I think that any Brithini who witnessed it would have converted on
> the spot. The Doubting Thomases back home not having any proof would
> still remain unconvinced. Over time however, the Brithini have lost
> whatever people of principle they had and become a race of cowards.
>
> >The new Malkoni would have seen it as heresy since it advocated the
> >relaxation of the Laws handed down by Malkion himself.
>
> To which the obvious unanswerable answer was: 'if Hrestol was a
> heretic, then why was he taken up into Solace?'.
>
> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:53:46 +0200
> From: Nils Weinander <nilsw@ibm.net>
> Subject: Illumination & saints
>
> Simon Hibbs:
> >
> > > I have no particular proof of this, except that the Lunars use
> > >riddles and Riddlers to acheive their ends, and the Kralorelans use
> > >study & mediatation. Sounds like appoaching from the opposite sides
> > >to me.
> >
> > So what is it that they are approaching from different directions?
>
> Reintegration of the One and the Many.
> _____
>

> Simon again:
> >
> >Malkioni saints remind me vaguely of the bodhisatva of Mahayana
> >Buddhism, who chose not to enter nirvana in order to save others.
>
> and Jose:
> >
> >This has the added advantage that in the RW some bodhisattvas have been
> >worshipped as gods, something that happens in henotheist lands too.
> >
> >I take Saint to mean a human (or other mortal race) that has attained
grace
> >and still hangs on to help others reach Solace. That means that for some
> >henotheists Orlanth, Ehilm and company were people in the far past who
did
> >great things and now are helping others.
>
> Just some gratuitous gloating that I'm not alone in
> believing this...
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Nils Weinander | Everything is dust in the wind
> nilsw@ibm.net | http://www.geocities.com/Paris/8689/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 07:30:01 -0400
> From: Lord Julian <113661.3343@compuserve.com>
> Subject: The Invisible God is invisible
>
> From: Julian Lord
>
> Jose Ramos: =
>
>
> >Asking God directly is (IMO) sinful, as you doubt its omniscience
> >and omnipotence, and have too much pride believing that your own
trouble=
> s
> >are important.
>
> Not sure I agree with this one. One of God's (self-imposed?)
> limitations to his omnipotence is that people have free will.
> (This view might be heretical.) From this POV,
> if God knew that a prayer *will* take place,
> and a worshipper chose *not* to pray,
> God would know rather that it *won't*.
>
> Asking God directly is, then, an Act of Faith, and no sin.
>
> IMO asking for help from God with pride is sinful,
> asking with humility isn't.
>
> ____Brithini cognitive functions__________________
>
> >Does an apostate brithini (Arkat, for instance) get a soul "ipso
facto",=
>
> >even before age is felt?
>
> IMHO an apostate brithini would only get a soul by heroquesting for one.
> Perhaps he would get one by joining a religion, but he'd at the very
leas=
> t
> have to do the long-form initiation solo (to use a Pendragonism) before =
>
> getting one. Similarly for conversion to Malkionism, etc.
>
> >As a former french resident, where in France are you living? =
>
> >I know some people and places to play.
>
> In Paris. Hey: Thanks!
> =
>
> > you know God feels different in Spain. =
>
>
> Yup.
> _______________________________________________
> Simon Hibbs: (much SNIPped)
>
> >The predictions of terestrial physics fail to describe the conditions
on=
>
> >Glorantha, and so they cannot be applicable. =
>
>
> You misunderstand me. I was suggesting that the scientific
> *approach*(es) would be similar to RW ones. Perhaps not
> the 20th century RW, admittedly. Gloranthan reality is
> of course radically different.

>
> Also terrestrial physics *could* describe gloranthan =
>
> physics, if physicists could travel there, or find some method
> of measuring Glorantha. Lots of long and hard work for the scientists
> involved in such a project, though.
>
>
> >Gravity acts perpendicularly to the world's surface, regardless =
>
> >of your location on it.You might be able to explain this effect, =
>
> >however a stable planetary orbit in a uniform parallel field is =
>
> >impossible, so gloranthan celestial mechanics contradicts =

>
> >universal gravitation.
>
> Um, what about the Sun? Yelm has, I believe, a stable orbit?
>
> Gloranthan physical objects have weight and fall down. =
>
> Therefore, they have gravity. (Mind you, Newton's work did partially
> change the meaning of this word ...)
>
>
> >ME>The Law of Universal Attraction, maybe?
>
> SH>_A_ law, or perhaps principle, of attraction maybe, but not newton's.
>
> Your quibble is sustained, but I think my point was valid.
> RW science and theory IS applicable.

>
>
> >ME>Scientific apparatus is a set of mechanical devices
> >>which would work perfectly well in Glorantha.
>
> SH>All I can say is that I disagree. Gloranthans witness events every
day=
>
> >which contradict the known laws of terestrial physics.
>
> Hmm. OK, they *would* function, but the results you'd get from
> many of them would in fact be gibberish.
> I disagree with your estimate of 99.9% though.
>
>
> >ME>Perhaps, Simon, you are confusing gods with Divinity Itself.
> >>Divinity exists before, beyond and within all gods and mortals.
>
> SH>I don't think so. You are directly contradicting your stated
possition=
>
> >that belief creates the gods. (etc.) =
>
>
> Not true. =
>
>
> Belief doesn't create Divinity, 'cos its already there.
> A god, however, only encompasses a portion of Divinity, not all
> of it. (Except for the Invisible God, who does.)
> Following a cult shapes belief into a god who gives a =
>
> pathway to universal Divinity. The God Plane then sustains

> the independant existence of the god. Mucho heroquesting necessary.
>
>
> > there is a process of interaction between humanity
> >and divinity which we call religion.
>
> Is religion, then, a branch of chemistry?

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 15:34:27 +0200
> From: Jose Ramos <jose@kobo.es>
> Subject: Hrestol's martyrdom
>
> Bill Thomson says mainly sensible things that I agree with.
>
> I also think there was a division between the Old Malkioni and the New.
But
> hrestolism did not catch up as a religion (and Hrestol became widely
known)
> until his bodily ascension confirmed the righteousness of Hrestol's Joy
of
> the Heart.
>
> Before his death the only followers he had were the few knights he had
> instaured in Seshnela. He did not set up to become a religious model, his
> life did. So his death (for caste crime) and glorification swept the
> malkioni, and many brithini with them. I think it is better to keep the
> actual ascension in doubt, and to suppose that a vision able to shatter
> malkionism for ever could move the stone hearts of the brithini.
>
> As to my sources, the guide to Sog city and the fragments mentioned in
the
> Digest of Hrestol's saga (Joerg I think, some of them in private mails)
> were inspiring, but most ideas were mine. A man who is working as a judge
> among the Vadeli would have trouble finding the time to be a charismatic
> religious leader.
>
> I interpret some miracles differently. Despite malkioni fragmentation,
all
> the sects but the brithini and the god forgoti have Hrestol in a place
> almost as important as Malkion. So Joy of the Heart went uncontested by
> anyone in the West. And that's the greatness of Hrestol.
>
> That is different from saintly miracles, that usually are subtle
and
> difficult to prove.
>
> Jose
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 9 May 98 14:59 MET DST
> From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe@toppoint.de>
> Subject: Heortland
>
> Peter Metcalfe srictly sticks to the definition of Heortland in the
> borders of 1621 even for the Dawn Age. I don't see any reason why a
> national term rather than a geographical term couldn't change its
> expansion over time? Carmania varied in size and position a lot, too,
> the modern use being restricted to its westernmost provinces of old.
>
> Peter mentions Arkat summoning Silver Age heroes from Caladraland and
> Esrolia. Does this mean that Arkat visited the Vent and Necropolis in
> Esrolia (which is one place where Vogarth did something)? Wouldn't he
> have summoned Heort on Arrowtop Mountain (cf Lawstaff Quest)?
>
>
> > I think by summoning
> > heroes, Arkat is dependant on the _local_ mythic geography rather

> > than using the heroes of a culture.
>
> Yes. And why couldn't this have been outside of the modern, restricted
> territory of Heortland? The Dragonkill War surely changed not just the

> mundane but also the mythic geography a lot...
>
>
> >>If you ask Shannon Appel, Heortland was a Chaos Waste prior to
> >>Hendriki settlement
>
> > Prax is a Chaos Waste yet people live there.
>
> No Orlanthi people, though.
>
> IMO most of modern Heortland was moderately to heavily forested prior to
> increased Hendriki occupation.
>
>
> > I'm even of the opinion that the People of God Forgot were Orlanthi
>
> Most of them, yes. Probably one of the Vingkotling Star Tribes.
>
>
> > whose demigod founder disappeared when the Print erupted.
>
> Do you mean the volcanic eruption (Lodril's spear thrust into Krarsht)?
> Or a later chaos eruption?

>
> If the first, this is somewhat problematic, since the entire Footprint
> myth seems to predate the Lesser Darkness (or at least takes place in
> its initial phase).
>
>
> > They then fled to the valley of
> > Refuge and from there colonized the Isles with their enforced Atheism.
>
> Add in the Ingareen founders of the Silver Age survivor nation, and I'm
> happy with this history.
>
>
> Peter and I argue about the influence the God Learner centres of Lylket
> and Locsil could have had over Hendrikiland (Jadnor is south, in the
> border region betweeen Caladraland and Rightarm Isles).
>
> Peter seems to imply that the God Learners conquered all of Hendrikiland
> for a century or so, whereas I think that the Jrusteli cities served as
> magical bases to start experiments from, but not as administrative
> centres of Heortland. Locsil may have become the "religious centre" of
> God Forgot (even though I believe that that would be Casino Town, where
> Esrolia as mistress of Luck is revered by the gamblers), but Talar Hold
> would have remained the seat of government.
>
> Lylket lies right next to Karse, south and below the Shadow Plateau, and
> seems to have been the God Learner centre for troll studies. (Its ruins
> are shown on the RQ2 map of Dragon Pass.)
>
> IMO the God Learners didn't dominate the land by military force before
> the Machine War broke out in earnest, but instead corrupted the land
> around them with their experiments. Peter asks:
>
> > What's the difference between the end result of slow corruption
> > and domination?
>
> Slow corruption remains a lot longer than short term domination. Compare
> the influence of eastern mystery cults in Rome to the Ostrogoth
> domination. The Ostrogoths were forgotten as soon as they had been
> ousted, the mystery cults entered Christian customs.
>
>
> >>To address your question: None of the Sartarite warriors are called
> >>knights. This indicates that they didn't share the Malkioni influence
> >>when they emigrated.

>
> > Or that the position of knights was created after they left.

>
> However, the "Sartarite nobles" fight as moderately heavy cavalry in
> Dragon Pass. IMO an inheritance from Arkat's knight companions, watered
> down but handed down over the ages.

>
>
>
> > Given that the Heortlanders bend over backwards to ensure the
> > Knights are one of the free classes, there seems to be very
> > little difference between the Knight and the Thane.

>
> A thane is a land-owning noble, whereas a knight is a landless mounted
> warrior in the service of nobles and "chieftains" (chief thanes).
> Sartarite housecarls may be mounted, too, but not necessarily so. IMO
> Heortland too knows professional footman warriors, and retains the term
> weaponthane for those in service to a lord.
>
>
> >>Let me see if I understand Peter's approach: The Hendriki took in all
> >>the refugees after the fall of the EWF and integrated them in their
> >>somewhat feudal system. Then, when Belintar crops up almost 300 years
> >>later, the old people remember the good old time and ditch the traces
> >>of Malkionism, and march off into Dragon Pass. At some unknown date,
> >>the Hendriki tribe falls apart into four separate tribes, all feudal.
>
> > Roughly correct. I don't think the Hendriki would have allowed
> > refugees to maintain their old tribal loyalties when they migrated
> > in. I also think the division of the Hendriki into four tribes
> > comes as a result of Belintar's reforms and this also accounts
> > for the knighthood.
>
> My views on this period differ a little (I've spiced this text richly
> with "IMO"s to avoid source demands):
>
> IMO the old tribal loyalties of the immigrants were tiny anyway. They
> would have been adherents of the Alakoringite tribal organisation rather
> than the older, larger tribes of Heort, Lokamayadon and Harmast. In
> addition, they were refugees who had suffered losses recently, so IMO
> their tribes would have been about the size of Hendriki clans (who had
> had 100 years or more to recover from the Machine Wars). Which is one
> reason why I think that the clan/subclan scheme proposed earlier is
> possible.
>
> IMO the Hendriki kept the best lands to themselves and settled the
> newcomers on the fringes or on less fertile parts of their lands - the
> upper foothills, the still somewhat devastated south, and the northern
> area harried by Troll Wood trolls and Footprint chaos. This geographical
> division formed the later alliances which led to the three non-Hendriki
> tribes of Heortland, as a reaction to the domination by the Hendriki.
>
> IMO at the time of the immigration there were about 150,000 Hendriki in
> the land (stretching roughly from Smithstone to Duchamps), maintaining
> some stability of population, and they received about 80,000 refugees
> between 1042 and 1120. (There also were some 30,000 Pelaskite fisherfolk
> along the coast, and probably as large a number of non-Hendriki
> clanspeople in the upper Storm Mountains.)
>
> The refugees' numbers multiplied a lot faster than the natives, so that
> around 1280 there still would have been around 150,000 Hendriki
> clanspeople, but around 200,000 non-Hendriki clanspeople. These
> second-class clans started to protest the Hendriki domination of
> politics, ressources, etc., and formed tribes or tribal federations of
> ca 70,000 members in order to get their rights and power.
>
> The arrival of Ralian trader families in southern Heortland around 1250
> (see Knight Fort origins debate) gave that region an economic boost,
> too. IMO it was around this time that the current concept of Heortlander
> knights developed among the Hendriki, who IMO had monopolized the
> lucrative trade to go through their hands only (easy, since they
> dominated the cities, which are located in the best lands).
>
>
> Belintar's arrival finally sparked the lingering conflict to come into
> the open. I'm not entirely clear which party supported the OOO and which
> Belintar, but that's partly because Belintar's unspecified mythic stunt
> in Heortland changed the picture. At least after this stunt, the Aeolian
> Church supported Belintar.
>
> First a civil and religious war ensued in Heortland. After this had
> resulted in the firm (re-) establishment of the Hendriki king and wide
> spread of the Aeolian Church in the Hendriki lands (Karse being
> resettled and held by dissidents who had the direct protection of the
> Pharaoh IMO), the veterans of this war went on and conquered the
> land-bound parts of God Forgot (Mt. Passant, Refuge). The castle in
> Refuge stems from this time (1350-1380).
>
> What followed was a period of relative peace and stability under the
> rule of the Pharaoh. The martially inclined Heortlanders took part in
> the annual scorpion hunts, or served in the Pharaonic army in the north
> or the west, or with the Praxian Marchers.
>
> After the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar, a few enterprising
> merchants and craftspeople followed the invitation of Sartar to settle
> in his new cities. The Pharaoh disliked the course Sartar had taken,
> though, and for a time sponsored the Kitori raids on trade caravans from
> Sartar.
>
> Northern Heortland remained under Kitori control until Tarkalor led an
> alliance of sun-worshippers and subject tribes in rebellion. After this,
> increased trade with Sartar provided new outlets for ambition.
>
> When Dormal opened the oceans, the sea offered another outlet. In fact,
> this sellers market for military personnel weakened the Heortland feudal
> military somewhat by taking away the best warriors.
>
> In 1605 the Lunar Tarshite commander Fazzur Wideread led an audacious
> cavalry raid through Volsaxi territory and took the Volsaxi city of
> Whitewall, advancing on Karse when he was called back after the main
> thrust of the invasion had been stopped at the Building Wall. Heortland
> had been caught unprepared.
>
>
> Jose Ramos
> >I will write, if only to avoid an all Joerg's special again.
>
> Sorry, half of the stuff queued up in my box for two days. The Alex
> phenomenon.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #603
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