Many things, mostly Western

From: Jose Ramos (
Date: Fri 15 May 1998 - 17:18:01 EEST

Julian Lord ponders about Illumination among the Malkioni.

The fact that there are different benefits depending on the individuals and
theis schools of thought shows that there is a certain variance in "The
Illuminating Experience".

IMO many of the benefits are lost for Malkioni, so illuminates are harder to
detect (no immunity to Spirits of Retribution, for instance). Indeed I think
many true believers are illuminated, but it does not make an impact in their
lives. Mistycism (as an analogue to RW catholic and muslim mystics) will
often hide illumination, and mystics can be considered holy people by most

Until we become illuminated it will be hard to explain to the
non-illuminated what is the difference.

I am not the first to say it, but just thinking as a XXth century
rationalist is a good parallel for illumination. Some players become
munchkins, some powergamers, some roleplayers lost in their role, some
fanatical members of their community. Just as an illuminate.


There is a canonization process in the malkioni churches, with certified
miracles a certain plus. Indeed, there will be hundreds of Saints. Those we
know about are the important ones, the famous, the reliable, or those
interesting for sociopathic adventurers.

Success is the key to become popular. If St. Gerlant devotees can show
flaming swords, it is quite convincing for others. St. Cauchy, who might
help you pass the Wizard examination tests, but has a spotty record, will
be unknown outside Loskalm, and will be little known even there.

Getting canonized (meaning you are seen as a fit model to follow to reach
Solace) is not hard. Not being ignored is the hard part.

[Peter]>I'm bemused. What do doubtful and fabricated saints have to do with

If I remember correctly, local gods and some "dubious" candidates are
included among the boddhisatvas. If I am wrong someone will probably say so.

Anyway, the way to become a boddhisatva is quite similar to a saint, and
their effect on the followers too. As I have already said, the question:
where are the saints?, is a question open to debate among the sects. More below.

>Let's say a Ralian says that their Saints Arkat and Orland dwell in
>Solace (IMO this is what most Ralians believe). What proof can you
>show to the Ralians that those Saints are _not_ in Solace? To take
>a RW parallel, what proof can you show to the Muslims that Mohammad
>is _not_ in Heaven?

Arguing as a rokari iconoclast, we know that Solace is the final bliss, from
where you don't return. If a prayer to a saint is answered, it is not by
those blessed who are in Solace, but by demons bent on misleading the
faithful from the narrow way to Solace. We know the False Gods give power to
their worshippers, in exchange for their souls. These false saints do the
same, misleading good malkioni to their doom!

Saints are in Solace. But those who follow the figure instead of God, they
will lose their soul with the idolaters.

The Saints are in Solace is a dividing issue among the malkioni IMG.

And my Otkorioni "know" St. Orland is not in Solace, but in his Cloud Castle
(somewhere in the Heavens) where those faithful not holy enough to get to

Solace straight away dwell for a time, perfecting themselves, and then rise
to Solace, or wait with Him till the good work is done and they can raise to
Solace, or (some heterodox preachers) to return to the world to try again.

><snip> More often than not, most Saints
>were real pious Malkioni. Furthermore most Sects would agree with
>the statement that Saints are in Solace with only the reincarnating
>Galvosti arguing differently.

My disguised God Learners were pious malkioni. In their five centuries, I
believe the GLs were one of the most fanatic and dedicated believers to be
seen in Glorantha. I don't think the Saint in Solace concept is not as
general as you say.

>Only one god, Jogrampur, is ever said by the God Learners to have
>been invented. I thus see little evidence to support the idea that
>the God Learners forged Saints on a massive scale.

Forged not. You have a GL who personifies a correct lifestyle, and taps the
power of a god. Done with the well meaning object of giving the faithful
different approaches to Solace, and the blessings to help them in the way.

>If they are not in Solace, then how do they gain the ability
>to work miracles?

>From the Invisible God, of course. It is Its power anyway. If you are a Holy
Saint, you can go to Solace, or work as a conduit between the IG and
Glorantha, to help the faithful.

Note: I am not sure where Saints really are, but I believe people believe
different things in Glorantha. I just give some arguments for the Saints
outside Solace that will be believed by some theologists in Glorantha. And I
am trying to explain why there is a St. Orland who gives blessings by
proposing a pious GL who became Orland so that the poor barbarians could
convert and get to Solace.

If they are in Solace, how can they answer to mundane needs?

Richard Develyn strikes again.

Basmol is death. Both the Praxians and the Basmoli know it. If the Basmoli
become powerful, they can quest to ressurrect Basmol, and to defeat Waha as
the new ressurrected Basmol. But Basmol will have died.

Just like Yelm, who was killed by a nobody known only by his nickname of
Rebellus Terminus.



This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:17:22 EEST