Saints and Sorcery

From: Jose Ramos (
Date: Sat 16 May 1998 - 19:05:40 EEST

Julian Lord goes against general opinion in the Digest.

>>There are sorcerers among the Orlanthi?
>RoC p.169: "Initiates of Chalana Arroy may become shamans
> or even sorcerors, ..."

That comes straight from the GoG. To assume that Orlanthi use sorcery just
because it is not forbidden for Chalana Arroy (who is willing to accept
anyone, even chaos). Or are orlanthi chaotic too because CA and Humakt allow


Read Strangers in Prax, or King of Sartar, who present more recent positions
on the orlanthi.

And who would teach sorcery? Just wondering...

BTW, the Arroini ducks are amusing, but certainly they don't exist in my

>I really don't think so, Jose. Illumination would be a kind
>of Revelation, and would surely make a *huge* difference
>in someone's life. One of my players has a Rokari Knight
>who's met Humakt and has experienced the divine nature of =
>this god. This, IMG, is one large step towards illumination =
>for the character. He believes in One Invisible God AND in =
>the divinity of Humakt. The coexistence in his mind of =
>these two irreconcilable beliefs draws the Knight towards =
>Illumination. Also a large source of anguish for the

What I meant is that a malkioni believer will have (IMO) it easier to
continue with his/her faith than a theist. That means you can continue with
your personal life, as before. Of course your spiritual self will be deeply
changed, but your social standing may even increase as your understanding of
the divine increases.

Your player is certainly in deep trouble, but most stygians manage to
believe so without difficulty. And many of Arkat's followers did so without
getting illuminated. I don't see it necessary to illuminate him to resolve
his troubles.

I agree with Frank Rafalsen in the importance of culture and surroundings in
the Illuminating experience. However there must be a common ground, so that
when two illuminates argue about the world, they understand each other
easily. Just like the Digest. And that will allow flames, religious wars and
general carnage.

Peter keeps repeating his arguments, instead of addressing other people's ideas.

>Peter>>I'm bemused. What do doubtful and fabricated saints have to do with
>>If I remember correctly, local gods and some "dubious" candidates are
>>included among the boddhisatvas.

>This is not unique to Mahayanna buddhism and can be found in
>Christainity, Islam and Hinduism among other religions. Case

>in point: Utnapishtum, a sumerian hero who survived the flood
>ends up with a name change in the Bible.

And? What I say is true, gives us a workable model (that you don't like
because of your fixation with "the saints are in Solace") and breaks the
Western Middle Ages parallel..

>>Arguing as a rokari iconoclast, we know that Solace is the final bliss, from
>>where you don't return. If a prayer to a saint is answered, it is not by
>>those blessed who are in Solace, but by demons bent on misleading the
>>faithful from the narrow way to Solace.
>So the miraculous manifestations (which a Rokari would know by
>heart) of Saints Rokar and Hrestol are naught but demons? How
>does one distinguish between a manifestation from a Saint in
>Solace and a manifestation of a fake Saint?

What miraculous manifestations? They were taken to Solace, which shows their
piety and holyness. Then you have inspired men and women following their
steps, but nothing that does not come from inside ourselves, following
Malkion's teachings. Of course that those who take Rokar's example are
satisfied with their place in life. And a true follower of Hrestol's way
will be able to do things that others think is impossible. And someone
advanced enough in St. Gerlant's path will see his sword flame. But what is
that obsession with having that come from a holy saint who is already beyond
this world?

>>And my Otkorioni "know" St. Orland is not in Solace, but in his Cloud
>>Castle (somewhere in the Heavens)
>What prevents the Otkorioni from saying that the Cloud Castle is
>a part of Solace? When synthesizing traditions, people are more

>likely to conflate topics rather than keep them seperate and pure.

Because you can visit Cloud Castle, of course (which is argued by Rokari as
a "proof" that Orland is a false saint), and contact those there, as you can

talk (with some risk) with one of your ancestors who is serving among
ZorakArkat's legion of the Death. And "everyone" knows that those in Solace
cannot be contacted.

That is the root of the problem. You accept the statement: Saints are in
Solace, while ignoring "All those in Solace cannot be interacted with (or
something like that)". I prefer to add some people say...

>>>If they are not in Solace, then how do they gain the ability
>>>to work miracles?
>>From the Invisible God, of course. It is Its power anyway. If you are a
>>Holy Saint, you can go to Solace, or work as a conduit between the IG and
>>Glorantha, to help the faithful.
>What prevents Saints from doing both (ie going to Solace _and_
>working as a conduit)?

Nothing. That is why I think you have both theological positions in Malkionism.

>Being in Solace didn't stop the Invisible God from creating the

I thought Solace was created by the IG, so he cannot be in. Basic metaphysics.
Pantheism anyone? In Glorantha it is better to ask Pantheism, where?

>Jose Ramos:
>>You have the KoL. Then the prophet Malkion gives his laws.
>Malkion founded the Kingdom of Logic IMO.

I think he just gave them laws when Logic stopped being self-evident for the
inhabitants. But my knowledge of old sources is scarce (being optimistic).

I hope to have shown that the Saints are in Solace can be a contested affair
in the West, while the fact that those who are in Solace cannot be
contacted, but for the Saints, is generally accepted (and has been declared
quite strongly as truth by GS and SP). Personally I like my model (or
competing models, to be fair), and it is what I use IMG.



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