Saints but no Solace

From: Peter Metcalfe (metcalph@voyager.co.nz)
Date: Sun 17 May 1998 - 05:45:38 EEST


Nikk Effingham:

>I believe that Saints also do not reside in Solace for the reason
>that I believe Solace to be the unreachable and unprovable.

I OTOH do not.

>In effect, IMG I never want it to be proven that Solace exists, because
>I feel that Malkioni are the only religion with true "faith". All
>other Gloranthan religions "know" that their path is the true and
>correct one, how can you deny it when you talk to the Gods every
>other week?

The Malkioni know that their way is true because they can prove
it by worshipping the Invisible God from which they can receive
'spiritual assurance' (GoG cults book p48). Hence the Malkioni
have as much proof for their ways as the theists.

Jose Ramos:

>Peter keeps repeating his arguments, instead of addressing other people's
>ideas.

I am not repeating my arguments, I do not 'read too deeply', I do not
have a 'fixation' and I do not 'ignore' other people's points. Hence
stick your slurs where the sun doesn't shine.

>>>If I remember correctly, local gods and some "dubious" candidates are
>>>included among the boddhisatvas.

>>This is not unique to Mahayanna buddhism and can be found in
>>Christainity, Islam and Hinduism among other religions.

>And? What I say is true, gives us a workable model (that you don't like
>because of your fixation with "the saints are in Solace") and breaks the
>Western Middle Ages parallel..

The Saints in Solace is hardly my 'fixation' as it is almost canonical
as you can get. I see no need to break the Western Middle Ages parallel

in this case as it is not unique to the Western Middle Ages but also
exists in Islam, Orthodox Christainity and Hinduism, all of which are
also worthy parallels. Secondly the proposed model is _flawed_. We
would have to junk the imagery of Saints ascending into Solace to
satiate some people's dislike of medievalism and which the end result
is practically the same. So I ask: What does the boddhisvattva
parallel give us that cannot be given by the standard model?

>>>Arguing as a rokari iconoclast, we know that Solace is the final bliss,
>>>from where you don't return. If a prayer to a saint is answered, it is
>>>not by those blessed who are in Solace, but by demons bent on misleading
>>>the faithful from the narrow way to Solace.

>>So the miraculous manifestations (which a Rokari would know by
>>heart) of Saints Rokar and Hrestol are naught but demons? How
>>does one distinguish between a manifestation from a Saint in
>>Solace and a manifestation of a fake Saint?

>What miraculous manifestations? They were taken to Solace, which shows
>their piety and holyness.

Gerlant makes swords burst into flame, Rokar comforts the faithful.
How can you distinguish those manifestations from that of Saint
Orland striking people with the Thunderbolt?

>Then you have inspired men and women following their steps, but
>nothing that does not come from inside ourselves, following
>Malkion's teachings.

        'Though there is but one true god, there are numerous
        individuals who have discovered certain truths about
        physical cycles, allowing them to intercede in worldly
        affairs to ensure the wellbeing of the righteousness
        who follow their ways. We term these individuals
        _Saints_.'
                            GoG: What the Wizard Says.

Perhaps it helps to know what is said about the Saints before
arguing at depth about them...

>>>And my Otkorioni "know" St. Orland is not in Solace, but in his Cloud
>>>Castle (somewhere in the Heavens)

>>What prevents the Otkorioni from saying that the Cloud Castle is
>>a part of Solace?

>Because you can visit Cloud Castle, of course [...] And "everyone" knows
>that those in Solace cannot be contacted.

Wrong.

        'The heirs of Snodal claim to have spoken to the prince's
        ghost, sent by the Invisible God (say some) but summoned
        through darkest necromancy (say others). [...] Scholars
        at the University of Sog City seeking to duplicate the
        summoning of the prince, got instead some of his companions
        in the heroic venture, who corroborated the prince's tale'.
                                Heroes v1 #6 p45

You'll also find this at www.glorantha.com in the history of the
fifth wane of the Lunar Empire.

>That is the root of the problem. You accept the statement: Saints are in
>Solace, while ignoring "All those in Solace cannot be interacted with (or
>something like that)".

I recall answering this in a response to Nils to the effect that I
_deny_ that people in Solace cannot be interacted with. Given that
this post was directly below the post you are responding to, may I ask
who is doing the ignoring in this debate?

>>What prevents Saints from doing both (ie going to Solace _and_
>>working as a conduit)?

>Nothing. That is why I think you have both theological positions in
>Malkionism.

I've not seen a credible reason why most Malkioni should be in
doubt over whether the Saints are in Solace or not. All it
appears to rely on is a fallacious Nirvana parallel with Solace.
To wit: Nirvana is the state of non-existance whereas Solace
is a Place of Perfection. Therefore there is nothing to prevent
intercession with the lower world.

>>Being in Solace didn't stop the Invisible God from creating the
>>world.

>I thought Solace was created by the IG, so he cannot be in. Basic
>metaphysics.

You seem to have taken a few shortcuts in your argument as it
does not follow.

>I hope to have shown that the Saints are in Solace can be a contested
>affair in the West, while the fact that those who are in Solace cannot
>be contacted, but for the Saints, is generally accepted (and has been
>declared quite strongly as truth by GS and SP).

Perhaps you should reread these statements. All they argue is
that the Malkioni do not go to the same place that dead theists
go.

- --Peter Metcalfe

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