The Saints go marching in!

From: Jose Ramos (jose@kobo.es)
Date: Sun 17 May 1998 - 23:48:31 EEST


>Jose Ramos:
>
>>Peter keeps repeating his arguments, instead of addressing other people's
>>ideas.
>
>I am not repeating my arguments, I do not 'read too deeply', I do not
>have a 'fixation' and I do not 'ignore' other people's points. Hence

>stick your slurs where the sun doesn't shine.

Let's see, I have just read you answering the same thing to Nikk Effingham,
Nils Weinander and me. I believe noone has slurred you, yet, and if
intimidation is your objective, you apply it the wrong way. But of course,
your divine mandate to be right precludes debate, I suppose.

I will try to avoid post and repost, except when necessary to make my point.

We know at length you don't like the boddhisattva parallel, because you
don't want any Malkioni to believe the saints are outside Solace. And you go

to extreme length to disavow living Saints, false saints, etc, as they
cannot be in Solace.

>Gerlant makes swords burst into flame, Rokar comforts the faithful.
>How can you distinguish those manifestations from that of Saint
>Orland striking people with the Thunderbolt?

Faithful followers of Gerlant show their piety by making their swords flame
(as Gerlant did, _while he walked Glorantha_ , or faithful rokari are always
satisfied with their lot in life. What need to add a thunderbolt in the scene?

And I agree many sects will hold your position. But a quick look to
christian sects will show little agreement on this matter. Why should the
Malkioni be different?

Weren't you (or perhaps the heretic Nick) who proposed a strong iconoclast
current in the rokari church, followed by destruction of saint's imagery and
proscribing saint worship as idolatry? A nice idea that influenced my
thoughts on the western gloranthan religions.

>
>Perhaps it helps to know what is said about the Saints before
>arguing at depth about them...

That's why instead of a blanket statement about saintly status (you dislike
them, I believe) I prefer an individual position in each sect, with
differing currents in large sects (as in RW).

>>Because you can visit Cloud Castle, of course [...] And "everyone" knows
>>that those in Solace cannot be contacted.
>
>Wrong.
>
> 'The heirs of Snodal claim to have spoken to the prince's
> ghost, sent by the Invisible God (say some) but summoned
> through darkest necromancy (say others). [...] Scholars
> at the University of Sog City seeking to duplicate the
> summoning of the prince, got instead some of his companions
> in the heroic venture, who corroborated the prince's tale'.
> Heroes v1 #6 p45

Well, who has included Snodal in the saints list, and specially the Priests,
and other heroes (believers enough in gods to kill one) who helped him? I
thought it is Siglat the saint in the family.

And your own arcane source shows there are different opinions among the
scholars.

And I repeat, AFAIK, the souls of mortals in Solace cannot be interacted
with. One of the tenets of Malkioni faith, that shows their difference from
theists.

>>That is the root of the problem. You accept the statement: Saints are in
>>Solace, while ignoring "All those in Solace cannot be interacted with (or
>>something like that)".
>
>I recall answering this in a response to Nils to the effect that I
>_deny_ that people in Solace cannot be interacted with. Given that
>this post was directly below the post you are responding to, may I ask
>who is doing the ignoring in this debate?

Maybe my knowledge of English is incomplete, but if you read again my
statement (change denying for ignoring), you will see I acknowledge you deny
"those in Solace cannot be interacted with."

I suppose you have not found an authoritative source for "All saints are in
Solace", or with your mastery of cross referencing you would have posted it
now. Sincerely, I find that dull, and none of your arguments have managed to

convince me. So I will keep some sects believing you can be a Saint before
dying (and being in Solace), some that believe the blessings come from the
own faithful, some that believe in boddhisatva like saints hovering just
outside Solace, and some that hold that Saints are those extraordinary
individuals that manage to interact with the world _despite_ being in Solace.

YGMV, as always.

BTW, I agree with Nikk Effingham. You need a _lack of proof_ when you deal
with Malkionism, to differentiate from Theism. The confort of faith in God
is felt by Christians anywhere, no matter what their sect, and that is not a
an accepted proof of God's existence (although some Church Fathers have
argued so, Anselm, I believe).

Jose

P.S. Nice to see the good father Marlet echo my own opinions about God and gods.

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