Re: Saints

From: Nils Weinander (nilsw@ibm.net)
Date: Mon 18 May 1998 - 09:31:37 EEST


Peter:
>
> In the absense of _any_ qualification _whatsoever_ about the
> model, the default assumption is that the model is going to
> apply to all Saints in general.

Nobody else seems to have come to that conclusion.

> Thus trying to blame me
> for the furore caused by your slipshod writing is disingenuous.

If you find my writing unclear ask me what I really mean
and bear in mind that I am expressing myself in a foreign
language.

> I frankly do not the time for gloranthan metaphysical theories
> that are unknown by the people who are allegedly affected by
> it.

That's a perfectly valid choice. Personally I find
it both interesting and worthwhile to speculate about
how things "really work". The Malkioni, like all

Gloranthans, who are internal to the system, cannot
observe things from without. They can only make a
symbolic interpretation of the Otherworld, just like
the theists, the spiritists, the mystics etc. Even
though I'm not likely to ever find a "truth" underlying
it all, I still like to think along those lines.

> If the Malkioni say the Saints are in Solace then for
> all intents and purposes, we should treat them as being there
> rather than smirk at the ignorance of the Malkioni.

I'll leave the smirking to someone else, ignorance has
nothing with the issue to do. The Malkioni interpretation
is not wrong, just as incomplete as any other.
_____

> So what is wrong with the concept that people in Solace can
> be contacted?

Nothing wrong, it just clashes with the general opinion
on Solace.

> It's contradicted by the existance of Malkion
> and Hrestol having an influence on the mortal world.

They were the holy prophets, making laws and setting
examples. That should suffice for having a continued

influence. However, I agree that those two make a
special case.

> >So, can ancestors be contacted in some way, or is that
> >something which is the mark of saints? If they can,
> >since holier saints are harder to reach, "bad" ancestors
> >would be easier to contact than the exemplary malkioni

> >ones. Odd, but perhaps consistent.
>
> Why is it odd? The more entanglements with the mortal
> world, the closer you are to it, no?

The saints can be contacted, aunt Edna who swore in the
temple and had an affair with the neighbour once can be
contacted but angelic uncle Fred who was an exemplary
Malkioni in every way can be reached with the utmost
difficulty. That's the problem.

> >That's a mark of a saint: the miracle making.
>
> How do the Saints work their miracles?

Magic, in a similar way that deities and heroes grant
it to their devotees.

> >But I would like to know the reason why you think they have
> >to be in Solace for that.
>
> Because they are in contact with the Invisible God and thus
> they are in Solace.

Isn't the Invisible God present in all creation, in
and out of Solace? But this brings up another interesting
issue: the immanence of the Invisible God, more below on
that.

> >Which brings up an interesting question: are living saints
> >worshipped?
>
> Yes. Look at the prosopaedia entry for Gerlant:
>
> 'Gerlant's prowess and honor became so legendary,
> that even before his death, he was worshipped as
> a Saint'
> GoG Prosopaedia p7.

Thanks!

Nikk E:
>
>While I'd *hate* to get in the way of the "debate" between Pete and
>Nils, my own two pence is this.

Jose and one of the Simon's are in on it as well, so
this discussion never was a two man show. Welcome in!

>I believe that Saints also do not reside in Solace for the reason
>that I believe Solace to be the unreachable and unprovable.

I agree with unreachable (obviously), but not with
unprovable. The mere fact that those in Solace cannot
be reached is a sort of proof. But most of all, Malkion
said Solace exists, and the word of the prophet is
certainly proof to the Malkioni.
- -..
>I feel that Malkioni are the only religion with true "faith".

Back to the immanence then. I think the Invisible God
is more immanent than this. GoG states that IG worship
leaves the worshippers with the "knowledge" that their
devotion has gone to the right place.

Now to the saints, in or out of solace. Peter in reply
to Jose:
>
>The Saints in Solace is hardly my 'fixation' as it is almost canonical
>as you can get.

Is it? Malkion and Hrestol are explicitly said to
have ascended into Solace. What I and a few other
Digesters are less sure about are the rest of the

saints. I think there is no such canon - yet.

Jose:
>
>And "everyone" knows
>that those in Solace cannot be contacted.

Peter:
>
>Wrong.
>
> 'The heirs of Snodal claim to have spoken to the prince's
> ghost, sent by the Invisible God (say some) but summoned
> through darkest necromancy (say others). [...] Scholars
> at the University of Sog City seeking to duplicate the
> summoning of the prince, got instead some of his companions
> in the heroic venture, who corroborated the prince's tale'.

Do we know that Snodal is in Solace? If someone found
his _ghost_ it sounds rather like he is stuck in the
material world.

>I've not seen a credible reason why most Malkioni should be in
>doubt over whether the Saints are in Solace or not. All it
>appears to rely on is a fallacious Nirvana parallel with Solace.
>To wit: Nirvana is the state of non-existance whereas Solace
>is a Place of Perfection.

Just to not give an incorrect impression, I do _not_
support such a parallell. I agree with Peter's
description here.

>Therefore there is nothing to prevent
>intercession with the lower world.

OTOH there is nothing to prescribe it either.
______________________________________________________
Nils Weinander | Everything is dust in the wind
nilsw@ibm.net | http://www.geocities.com/Paris/8689/

------------------------------


This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 23:17:28 EEST