Re. :Illumunation through power

From: Simon Hibbs (
Date: Mon 18 May 1998 - 12:30:19 EEST

Frank Rafaelsen :

>You see, even when it is made clear to him that he is illuminated he
>doesn't realize the implications. Implications that you claim are the
>essence of illumination.

Why should Oddi realise the implications of his illumination?
Illumination is the starting point of the discovery of a whole new world
of conciousness. I don't think it instantly grants total awareness of
all it's implications and all the possibilities it opens up. These are
things that the illuminate discovers over time.

>Now I don't argue that illumination doesn't change Oddi, I only claim
>that the change comes from the powers and not the other way around.
>And I also claim that the changes of personality comes from Oddi's
>interpretation of the implications. Of course in the saga his
interpretation >is helped by a lunar.

Obviously Oddi has changed and so we can expect his personality to
change. Illumination will change him, but I don't think the direction or
character of those changes is inherently determined by illumination.
Illuminates can have just as wide a range of personalities after
illumination as before, if not more.

We seem to be arguing at cross purposes. You are arguing that :

1) Oddi gets the powers.
2) Having the powers changes Oddi's personality.

That's fair enough. Gaining powers obviously gives him opportunities he
didn't have before. However you don't seem to have left any place in
this for the insights of illumination.

If,as you say, the insights come from the powers too, then surely there
would be people walking around who have the powers but none of the
insights? How can you guarantee that having a given power will always

lead to a particular insight? What if the person in qustion is a bit
thick? Or just doesn't worry about it?

>I think, and in this I believe I'm supported by the article on
> about Humakt, that there isn't one illumination, there
>many states of illumination (RQ sight was one, I believe).

Not according to Greg and Sandy. As far as I can tell they say that
Illumination is a form of mystical insight into the nature of
conciousness and the world, while RQ Sight is a magical perception.

>The only thing I have to figure out now is whether this is a Godlearner

>view or a illuminate view. :)

Didn't you just say they are the same thing?

>How can a man make a lightening bolt hit his enemy only by shouting a
>prayer? Same thing. The ability to throw lightning bolts give a lot of
>'knowledge' about the order of things too....

Why should it? If all it takes is a shout, then why bother worrying
about why and how it works? In your moddel there would be lots of
heroes who heroquested extensively, gained lots of powers, and have
absolutely no idea why they got them. It would be possible to heroquest
successfuly by just learning the procedure by rote and going through the

You are effectively saying that faith, belief, divine revelation and
trenscendent conciousness are irrelevant trappings that actualy have no
value in Glorantha. They just happen afterwards and have no causative
influence on myth or magic.

I'm afraid that such a model holds no particular interest for me. There
are enough games and game worlds out there like that already. The
causative role of myth and the religious experience which drives
Gloranth is what attracts me to it.

Simon Hibbs


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