From: Simon Hibbs (simonh@msi-uk.com)
Date: Mon 03 Aug 1998 - 20:03:36 EEST
Sergio Mascarenhas replying to Peter Metcalfe,
>In other words, the Spirit does X and creates effect Y.
I hope you don't mind if I chip in :
>And the shaman may use a spirit spell, which means that:
>A Shaman does X and creates effect Y.
Only in the most tenuous of senses, i.e. that all effects have a cause.
I'm sure all mystics and philosophers would agree. It is the principle
which underlies all religion. The world exists and so it must have a
cause. The difference is in the form those causes take and their
relationship to their final consequence.
Sorcerers know that if they apply the correct force in the correct way,
Shamans believe that if they approach the spirit responsible for a
>In other words, your concept of materialist action applies to
the precise desired consequences _must_ follow. They believe in a
mechanistic universe a la Newton's mechanical cosmos. Sorcerers
manipulate nature through the excercise of their intelect.
natural phenomenon and suck up to, beat up on, or beg pitifuly it
_might_ give them the effect which it has the power to give. They also
believe that they can develop a personal relationship with the spirit
and it's powers over time, to their benefit. Shamans persuade nature to
aid them through the excercise of their emotions.
>shamans, and gods.
It seems absurd to me to characterise these two philosophies as being in
>> The existance of the Invisible God is provable in Glorantha. Even
any usefull way identical. The two practicioners are using totaly
different aspects of their personality to achieve their effects and
their understanding of what they do is quite different.
>> the Brithini acknowlege his existance. Therefore he is no more
>> metaphysical than the existance of quarks in the RW.
In the sense of being a logical necesity.
>I would rather say that this proof is of the nature of the proofs of
Similar to that I suppose yes, but in the real world these proofs are
>The same can be said of spirit magic practitioners, and polytheists.
However these proofs are completely subjective. Even a shaman's own
>This looks a lot like the quest to prove the existance of God in RW
based on assumptions that are easy to challenge, such as the assumption
that humans have souls. In Glorantha it is fairly easy to prove that
humans realy do have souls, so proofs of that order are much more
credible. Pascal's Wager, for example, is a very compelling argument in
Glorantha whereas in the real world it is merely amusing.
For
>instance, there is plenty of proof on what concerns spirit magic
spells,
>spirits, and discorporate entities. The spirit plane is no less
'material'
>then the mundane plane.
tribespeople have a completely different experience of the otherworld to
the shaman. Everyone in the world agrees what a rock is, what it looks
and feels like. However diferent people's perception and experience of a
rock spirit is totaly subjective and open to disagreement. They could
quite easily describe their psychic experiences in such a way as to be
unrecognisable and unreconcilable.
As I have pointed out, there are serious differences. I'd like to
explore this theme more fully. I'll think on it.
>Malkionism allows for a more rational and logical dealing with mater
and >nature, not based on occasional aquisitions or the dependance on
sprits >or gods. In that sense, it is more materialistic.
That's exactly the sense in which it is materialistic.
> ...But it allows a person to
be more
>ready to understand the limits of the material, and to try to reach an
>higher level of existance without the constrains of mater. In that
sense,
>it is not materialist. Certainly, only an handfull of very special
people
>can attain the highest reaches of Malkionism.
For the Malkioni spiritual improvement in life is largely irrelevent.
All you have to do is follow your caste strictures and do what you're
told and Solace is guaranteed even to the lowliest peasant. Malkioni are
free to live wholly within the material world without any of the
mystical perceptions, divine reveleations and ecstatic trances of the
other religious forms. During worship, Malkioni have none of the
otherworldly experiences of Mysticism, Shamanism and Theism. All that is
irrelevent to them, the physical world is all there is for them during
life and is only transcended in death.
All this reminds me of Hobbesianism. I'll have to do some reading.
Simon Hibbs
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