From: Bob Stancliff (stanclif@ufl.edu)
Date: Thu 09 Dec 1999 - 19:12:29 EET
> Me>> Why would Uleria want to negate the Disorder of the Boggles? Their
> >> nature is good for the existance of the Cosmos.
No one said that it was permanent, only while they were together. Anyone
who touched the Boggles got attacked by Disorder (the Boggles couldn't
control it). Uleria was the only one who could touch them without
Disorder having the same effects that it did on everyone else. IMO this
means that she matched her Harmony against their Disorder so that they
would not hurt each other. If she was Fertility, Disorder should have
spilled the 'cup of life' or something similar.
You can use any word you want to describe the effect: negated,
neutralized, harmonized, overpowered, reduced, pacified, resisted... the
effect was that when they touched, Disorder failed to hurt her, and I only
consider that possible for Harmony.
> The Boggle race was of Disorder, and Disorder was the
> first seperation of the world from the void. This
> gave them great power against chaos, which they had
> already fought and defeated when they were first made.
> Urged on by Uleria's pain the Boggles hastened to
> staunch the tide of evil which followed the destruction
> of the Spike.
> Wyrms Footprints p38.
Nice quote... why did the destruction of the Spike -hurt- Uleria?
Because it damaged the Harmony of the World and weakened her power. One
might argue that it damaged the life force of the world, but the Spike is
associated with Law, Balance, and Stability, not Life or Fertility. It
would have to greatly disturb the flow of the life force to influence the
goddess of Fertility.
> I don't see any resistance from Uleria in the myth. She
> You do notice that Harana Ilor does not appear in the myth?
> The reason she doesn't is that Disorder is intrinsically opposed
> _embraced_ them instead.
Yes, an embrace that was shown to only be possible if Disorder could not
hurt her. Her powers were just as effective to protect her as theirs were
to hurt her.
Harana is the predecessor to Chalana (and would probably be gone at this
point). Under my premise Harana has to be Fertility/Infinity. This does
mean that the 'Harana defeats the Howling Void with Harmony' myth becomes
a 'Uleria defeats the Howling Void with Harmony' myth. An unfortunate
mis-telling of the myth sometime in the past.
Side note: Uleria is noted for courtesans, and courtesans are noted for
singing and playing music... another Harmony tie, and two of Uleria's
three spells are really Harmony spells, so the cult write-up is flawed
without some changes.
> to Harmony and thus trying to impose harmony on the Boggles
> would have done nothing.
Bringing opposites together ALWAYS does something. They attract,
conflict, or negate... usually more than one at once.
> >So Chalana Arroy should specialize in Fertility, and Harmony
> >should be secondary.
> Then why does she have no fertility magic?
Reread my previous post... ALL Healing, restoration, and resurrection
magic is Fertility magic.
I think Chalana probably -should- have procreation spells like the one
that Uleria currently has, though Chalana is generally more interested in
keeping thinks alive than in breeding more of them.
She doesn't have these spells, because Greg wrote his opinion first, and
I disagreed with him just a few years ago... far to late for him to change
his position or to change all the printed material.
This is basically my list of 'Things that Greg got Wrong'. I don't
really expect Glorantha to change just because I found an inconsistency in
the application of definitions, but I have tried to explain and defend m
view.
> beat up Daga.
Orlanth said "violence is always an option", and Ernalda said "there is
always another way". One exception out of all of those myths hardly makes
a case, since she said 'don't use violence' far more often than she said
'use violence'. She clearly abjures violence but not to the degree that
Chalana does, because her tie to Fertility is weaker by my premise, and
this supports my premise. Fertility cults abjure violence & Death and the
controller of Fertility strongly opposes violence & Death.
> >These views and vows are a living opposition to the power of
> >As a side note, if Uleria really possessed Fertility/Infinity, then her
> >Death and must logically stem from a tie to Fertility.
> Chalana's vows could easily stem from an opposition to disorder
> and violence rather than death. Disorder destroys the harmony
> of the body and so must be opposed.
But violence is an attempt to impose Death, not Disorder. Violence and
Death are the direct result of war and combat, Disorder is a side affect.
Harmony and Death can co-exist when properly applied, as in Hunter and
some other cults, but Chalana -always- opposes violence and Death, so must
therefor be strongly tied to the opposite rune of Fertility.
I don't see why anyone who has played Pendragon trait pairs doesn't see
that these are clear cases of trait oppositions.
> >followers would be -very- fertile and no contraception could be
allowed,
> >so Uleria bastards would be overrunning most cities.
> Umm, it's specifically stated in the prosopaedia that Uleria
> was the Goddess of Life but is now the Goddess of Love, in
> other words, she has been changed.
I expand my previous observation... Greg got there first and wrote the
myths to support his views. He was just inconsistent enough for me to see
that he doesn't always believe what he wrote (or else we have very
different dictionaries), and that an alternate interpretation would reduce
the number of inconsistencies.
I have no expectation of persuading you, Peter, I have never seen you
change your mind. I am expressing my view and giving arguments based on
the definitions of the runes and the basic concepts of powers in
opposition to show that the current material is inconsistent and could be
better if changed. I think that I have done that.
> ------------------------------
> "Dormal taught everyone to pray to him, who was the only
> person capable of creating the protection. The prayer
> ceremony, or worship, has been infallible when done
> properly."
> ML p101
That is definitely an answer to the question. It would basically require
a Ceremony fumble to not know the spell failed. What is ML?
> Peter wrote:
> IMO to enter the Sea of Brithos requires one to scrap the Open Seas
> spell which is risky if the navigator isn't sure if the ship is
> within the actual sea or not. Then to leave the Sea of Brithos
> requires the performance of the Open Seas ritual.
I should have guessed that you would want the spell to be cast every time
the boat changes bodies of water. There is only one Closing spell, so one
Open Seas casting (it is plural, right?) should be enough for all of them.
Stancliff
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