Re: Argrath son of Argrath, and his twin?

From: Jane Williams (
Date: Sun 26 Mar 2000 - 13:55:16 EEST

Nice one Roger! Looking back through old mail, it was back in July '98
when we had that conversation.

> the sources give us several (three or four?...) genealogies for A...

I know of three, plus some confusion over Brenna.

1) The most relevant here, in "Argrath of Pavis, p175.
"Argrath was a son of Brenna the daughter of Verlain, the son of
Dorasor and a slave woman".

1a) The "Startar Dynasty", p48, is a family tree which shows Dorasor
"Prince of Pavis" having two children, Daringle and Brenna. Maybe
these were the legitimate children, and "our" Brenna was named after
her aunt?

2) CHDP, p156. "Argrath" lights the Flame, and claims to be the son of
Maniski and Yanioth Two-Sight, a descendant of Minara.

3) "Argrath" visits the Colymar, early in his reign, and claims
membership of the tribe because of his family: he is the son of Venharl
the Climber, a descendant of the Karandoli clan.

Our identification of Brenna with the Harvest Queen, and AofP as the
son of Garrath, sorts out where one of the extra ancestries comes
from. My own explanation of the remaining two relies on the fact that
"Argrath's" parents died when he was very young: he would then have
been fostered, and the additional ancestry is that of his foster parents.

Interestingly, the Karandoli of ancestry 3 seem to have vanished from
Sartar and founded the City of Thieves, now known as Badside, a long
time before Dorasor got to Pavis. Venharl the Climber seems to have
been a Pavis-based adventurer. So Garrath could have been born in
Pavis, of Venharl and an unknown mother. If the mother died when he
was young, he could then have been fostered with Maniski and Yanioth
(in the Starfire Ridges, according to tradition). And Venharl would
simply have wandered off. He seems to have a son called Arnbord in
Pavis who's a poet and story-teller (KoS p235), unless of course this is
Garrath in disguise.

Argrath White Bull I still see as being a third Argrath, myself. He
spends a lot of time wandering Prax as a slave of the Bison tribe at a
time when Garrath was a notable member of the Orlanth temple in
Pavis. I just don't see the Bisons letting their slaves have time off to
attend to temple duties.

Now of course, since AWB was a slave, not a member of the tribe, he
may well have been captured from another homeland entirely. My
preferred story makes him Sartarite by birth, and about 10 years older
than Garrath, but....

As MOB pointed out, the children Garrath sired in Garhound would
probably have been twins. We know what happened to Enostar. What
about the other one? My initial thought was that the other one (gender
unknown) is a PC, but having him captured by the Bisons might be
even more fun!

After 1625? Yes, we need to get rid of some extra Argraths. In the
period 1625 - 1630, we have near civil war in Sartar, with "Argrath"
(Garrath, for my money) controling the north, and Kallyr controlling the
south and Boldhome.

AWB is known to have been one of Kallyr's supporters. I'd say he
either dies on her SLBQ, or facing Harrek. One down!

AofP is known to have quarreled with the Telmori in 1629 (p212), but so
far I have no idea why.

The Mularik story starts with Argrath owing Mularik a favour from when
they travelled with the Wolf-pirates together. That's Garrath! Mularik
then gets over-ambitious, and Garrath does a "will no-one rid me of this
troublesome priestXXXXXX king?" to be rid of him. No need for more
than one Argrath to be involved, here.

Those marriages, though. Roger's got some good points here. I don't
see any of the Argraths marrying Kallyr, but they do get through too
many FHQs and the infant Queen of Holay in a very short space of

1629. According to CHDP "Argrath" marries the FHQ. According to
Minaryth Blue, Kallyr marries "at last", but he doesn't say who to! My
explanation is that this is Kallyr trying to be King of Dragon Pass,
marrying the FHQ by proxy. I had thought she would use Garrath as
her proxy (and heir), but I'd listen to suggestions that this was Enostar.
In any case, this marriage would be nullified (wouldn't it?) after Kallyr's
death in 1630.

16??: Saga, "Argrath" marries the FHQ. Again. Either renewing the
previous marriage, or this was a different Argrath.

1634: According to CHDP "Prince Argrath" betrothed to the infant
Queen of Holay. The Saga adds details of the courtship. Presumably
this wasn't the same Argrath who was married to the FHQ?

1640: CHDP presented to "his lordship" at his upcoming wedding.
Comparison with the Saga suggests that this was a wedding to the
Queen of Holay, after a long courtship. Comparison with the FHQ list
suggest that the bride was FHQ8. They seem to have shared wedding
gifts, anyway! A joint wedding, with both Argraths involved?

It would be nice to end up with Roger's conclusion of only one surviving
Argrath. How about this?

In the 1625-1630 civil war, AofP is not as loyal to his dad (the one who
abandoned him, remember?) as Dad might wish. In fact, he's the one
who gets nominated as Kallyr's heir, since he has Sartar blood (which
Garrath doesn't!). Kallyr may have thought being nice to Garrath's son
would mollify him somewhat. In fact Garrath has now realised that the
kid isn't an ally, he's the competition.

1629, AofP gets pulled from Pavis to Sartar, perhaps for the first time,
and used as the proxy in the FHQ marriage. For the first time, he
meets Kallyr's Telmori allies, and doesn't get on with them at all.
Rather than being Kallyr's ally as she had hoped, he uses the FHQ
power to become Side 3 in the civil war.

1630. Garrath persuades his old friend Harrek to kill Kallyr for him. This
removes Kallyr as competition (obviously!), and as it removes the proxy
marriage, it also deprives AofP of his extra power.

We want to end up with just one Argrath who is both KoDP and King of
Saird via Holay. My guess would be that AofP marries the FHQ,
Garrath gets the Queen of Holay, and on Garrath's death (pick a battle,
any battle, and allow for back-stabs) AofP inherits his position in Saird.
Garrath has to survive until 1640 at this rate, so that the "upcoming
wedding" isn't bigamous, but after that he's superfluous to the plot. I
suppose we could have him sacrificed 7 years after his marriage?

Anyone else who's studied Argrath's battles post-1630 got any better
ideas on this one? Peter? Joerg?

Jane Williams


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