From: Gian Gero (giangero@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon 03 Apr 2000 - 10:50:32 EEST

Hi to all, and especially to Julian and Peter.

>You'll begin to see, Gian, *why* this is a 'difficult thread' ...

Certamente, ma, vedi, uno dei miei personaggi un Lhankor Mhy che sta per
diventare Sage, facendo una tesi sul Chaos, ma conoscendo l'Old Wyrmish,
quindi qualche confusa idea mi serve...

> > GG>> The purposes of Chaos and of Dragonewts are opposed, not similar
> > >> IMO. Yes, there are affinities: both devour and both refuse the
> > >> material balanced world in Time, but, a big BUT, for altogether
> > >> different reasons.
> >
> > JL>YES. Chaos Void and Mystic Void are two different Voids.

> >
> > The chaotic void would be the mystic void turned inside out
> > (c.f. Salonar Tamaskil's speculations in Cults of Terror,
> > sidebar p19).
>So you're saying that there *is* a transcendental correspondance
>between the Voids of various Gloranthan cultures ?

Ehi, Who's "you"? Me or Peter? This last sentence was Peter's, not mine.
I would answer "no", IMOHO: voids, in Glorantha, are not simply theories
such as in our world. Even Entropy and nothingness are unproven (unprovable)
hypothesis in RW.

>Well, I suppose that I can always reverse my initial position here,
>and affirm that there *isn't*, for dialectic purposes ;


>there isn't actually any notion of 'Chaos' as such in most
>cultures that are based on Mysticism.
>(I think that I can say this much at least, without stepping
>on any expert toes ?) :-)

Right, but why, I wonder? Because Chaos has never tainted mystics (thats'
not true, IMO: it has never tainted Dragons, but Nysalori, for instance, are
mystics born out of chaotic philosophies, IMG)? Or because mysticism was
born _before_ or _outside_ (speaking of times before Time) the world
violated by the Greater Darkness? I prefer this latter opinion.

Moreover, keep in mind that this is not merely a discussion about "Angels'
sex", in Gloranthan terms: both chaos void and mystic void are real,
ontological realities in Glorantha, so they "exist" even if someone denies

>This, I think, is the main reason that the Chaos Void and the
>Mystic Void are incompatible in actual Gloranthan cultures ;
>with the important exception of the dragonewts, it now appears.

See above, for my own private explanation. To me, BTW, dragonewts are not an
exception at all.

>And : Is Saronil Tamaskil an inheritor of the EWF ?
> > >the Orlanthi/GL explanation of the void is simply Non-Mystic,
> > >and incompatible with dragonewtism.

> >
> > I wouldn't say this. Rather that Orlanthi only know of the
> > Chaotic void and they are deeply suspicious about adopting
> > mystical practices from foreigners given they have already
> > been burned twice as a result of past practices (once by
> > Nysalor and the other by the EWF).

This sentence is Peter's, not mine, again (wuf-wuf).

>I think that the issue is with the precise difference between
>Entropy (Chaos Void) and
>Emptiness (Mystic Void).
>The notion of Entropy (as an Evil force) is basically incompatible
>with Mysticism (as Transcendant Liberation from the World).

Yes, but... In the RW you can say that: two philophies are born in different
contests and they aren't really comparable, but in Glorantha you have both
true and both real, not mere specuations. So you _have_ to start from their
"compatibility" in some sense, not from the question: are they compatible or
I hope to be clear.

Entropy = Chaos = the thing from outside that crawls in the fabric of the
world and threatens to eat it away. CoC (ciao, Sandy) would call it: the
Cthulhu Mythos and the Outer Gods.

Trascendant Liberation = Mystic Enlightenment = Dragon Evolution (or, maybe,
de-devolution); here the world is not an obstacle to perfection as itself,
it is so only if you (the mystic) allow it to thrive in your soul, but you
don't need to destroy it physically to be free. You have to free your soul

and your life to travel outside, like dragons, where the "true reality of
nothingness" is. [BTW, I suspect that Dragon's Void is not nihil: it is void
in the sense that It is Something Else, altogether different from Glorantha,
so Gloranthans do call It "void", and you have to "void" yourself of
Glorantha in order to reach It, but Dragons know better]. Certainly, you are

not allowed to kill or constrain others in order to better yourself (while
Chaos would like to). But you shall not allow others to keep you from
perfecting yourself, so you can defend from their eventual aggressions (like
dragons did in 1120).

Ok, now I have to rest a little, else I will damage myself and obstacle my
"walk to perfection" :-) ;-) :-P

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