Re: The Void

From: Alex Ferguson (
Date: Thu 06 Apr 2000 - 05:13:23 EEST

Julian Lord:
> So you're saying that there *is* a transcendental correspondance
> between the Voids of various Gloranthan cultures ?

Well, I'm sure you know how nervous I get when people talk about
(mere) gods being 'the same' or 'different' in some reductionistic
sense... Imagine how much more so when it comes to transcendent
and/or extra-cosmic concepts. ;-)

[chaos as a mystical non-concept]
> This, I think, is the main reason that the Chaos Void and the
> Mystic Void are incompatible in actual Gloranthan cultures ;
> with the important exception of the dragonewts, it now appears.

They certainly seem pretty different as concepts; one hestitates
to say in absolute terms how they might relate as 'things'...

> But Nils and Alex have the *facts*.

i.e., we're Official Conservators of assorted enigmatic statements
from Greg on such matters. ;-) (The Greg that can be explained
is not the True Greg, I imagine...)

> >the Orlanthi/GL explanation of the void is simply Non-Mystic,
> >and incompatible with dragonewtism.

Peter Metcalfe:
> I wouldn't say this. Rather that Orlanthi only know of the
> Chaotic void and they are deeply suspicious about adopting
> mystical practices from foreigners given they have already
> been burned twice as a result of past practices (once by
> Nysalor and the other by the EWF).

And being burnt once more, even as we speak...

Greg has in the past commented after describing the Lunar mystical
world, and being asked that the Orlanthi what equate with that,
responding "Chaos". Perhaps this indeed just the proverbial ignorance
of barbarians, or perhaps it's 'correct', in the sense that the
Orlanthi regard everything in the transcendent world which isn't
part of or knowable by Orlanth (and his kin) as 'if not actual chaos,
then safest presumed chaos until proven otherwise'. The Lunars
obviously flaunt this by including in their religions things which
the Orlanthi are Pretty Darn Certain, Thanks are indeed flagrantly
chaotic, but the suspicion would exist anyway.

Gian Gero:
> Trascendant Liberation = Mystic Enlightenment = Dragon Evolution (or, maybe,
> de-devolution); here the world is not an obstacle to perfection as itself,
> it is so only if you (the mystic) allow it to thrive in your soul, but you
> don't need to destroy it physically to be free.

Such things are matters on which reasonable men (and unreasonable
mystics) may sensibly vary... Whether the world is an obstacle to
liberation, or the means of achieving it, and whether said liberation
is separate from the world, or of a piece with it, is something
you'll get very different answers to, depending on whom you ask.

> [BTW, I suspect that Dragon's Void is not nihil: it is void
> in the sense that It is Something Else, altogether different from Glorantha,
> so Gloranthans do call It "void", and you have to "void" yourself of
> Glorantha in order to reach It, but Dragons know better].

I don't _think_ (cautious tone...) the Void is a draconic concept as
such; the Kralorelans I think prefer to talk 'officially' about the
Cosmic Dragon as their 'de facto Ultimate', unless locked in Digestesque
debate with NiangMao-type mystics who insist on bringing up the awkward
topic of The Void(TM), as such (such types indeed having this as a
concept, perhaps being its originators, even). What the 'newts make of
it I have little clue... The enigmatic statements about Ouroboros in
Elder Secrets ditto, but I'm tempted to guess they're an EWF account.



This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 13 Jun 2003 - 21:14:47 EEST