Re: The Glorantha Digest V7 #555

From: Jean Pierre SAPIN (jpsapin@club-internet.fr)
Date: Sun 16 Apr 2000 - 20:37:13 EEST


- ----- Original Message -----
From: The Glorantha Digest <owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com>
To: <glorantha-digest@chaosium.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 8:56 AM
Subject: The Glorantha Digest V7 #555

>
> The Glorantha Digest Saturday, April 15 2000 Volume 07 : Number

555
>
>
>
> TABLE OF CONTENTS
>
> John Hughes Gloranthan Pregnancy
> David Dunham Re: Perceptions of other gods
> John Hughes Gloranthan Pregnancy
> Mikko Rintasaari The Wooing of Mother Language
> Peter Metcalfe Rathori bows
> David Cake Proxies
> TERRA INCOGNITA Malkioni Fanaticism/ Wargod Mithra
>
> RULES OF THE ROAD
>
> 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
> 2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
> 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
> point-by-point basis.
> 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
> to stand by it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:30:10 +1000
> From: "John Hughes" <
nysalor@primus.com.au>
> Subject: Gloranthan Pregnancy
>
> Heys Folks,
>
> So Gian, how was Damascus? :)
>
> GLORANTHAN PREGNANCY
>
> Roger McCarthy:
> > (BTW how long do pregnancies last in Glorantha - 4 seasons would be
about
> > right assuming that Gloranthan days are about 20% longer than earth days
> so
> > the birth would be somewhere between Fire season 1604 and Fire/1605).
>
> As Alex noted, there has been inconsistency from Greg on this, and
> reflecting as it does on the basic forms of Gloranthan time and space, its
> about time it got finally sorted.
>
> I asked Greg about it directly a few weeks ago, and his response then was
>
> >9/12 OF A [Gloranthan] YEAR.
>
> That is, in direct ratio to human pregnancy (in months) against the terran
> year. I've refined that to 294/365 when calculating human and domestic
> animal pregnancies. [Ratio of Gloranthan days in a year to earthly days in
a
> year]. Using that equation, Gloranthan human pregnancy is 280*294/365 =
225,
> which I'd shorten to 224 days or 4 seasons, giving the same day and week
to
> both conception and birth, (barring Sacred Time complications ).
>
> Estrus cycles, however, I would keep as the equivalent number of days as
on
> Earth.
>
> Hopefully some sort of unequivocal answer will feature in the Orlanthi
life
> section of Thunder Rebels, though as yet I make no promises or
predictions.
>
> On earth, animal fertility cycles have evolved around the cycles of the
> seasons, with mating, pregnancy and birth occurring at the most
> environmentally opportune times. Because of this, I think there is a lot
of
> work still to be done in understanding Gloranthan animal life-cycles,
rather
> than relying too heavily on direct mathematical correspondences. Is this
> John making yet *another* plea to take everyday animal life and non-terran
> seasonal progressions more seriously? I'm afraid it is. <g>.
>
> Cheers
>
> John
> _____________________________________________
> nysalor@primus.com.au John Hughes
> johnp.hughes@dva.gov.au
>
> There was a muddy centre before we breathed.
> There was a myth before the myth began,
> Venerable and articulate and complete.
> >From this the poem springs: that we live in a place
> that is not our own, and much more, not ourselves.
> And hard it is in spite of blazoned days.
>
> - Wallace Stevens.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:16:27 -0700
> From: David Dunham <dunham@pensee.com>
> Subject: Re: Perceptions of other gods
>
> Nick Brooke wrote
>
> > I find it helps to think of the Proxies as ... stunt doubles.
>
> Great analogy!
>
>
> Richard Develyn
>
> > Ok, it's just this one I don't fully understand.
> >
> > The Malkioni accepts that there is another source of magic available,
which
> > works, but which derives from other gods.
>
> The problem is that "god" is such a convenient shorthand for
> "powerful otherworld being," which I suspect most Malkioni would
> agree with (with the caveat of adding some sort of negative
> adjective). There *are* no other gods than the Creator.
>
> Some Malkioni might say that the "gods" are servants of the Invisible
> God, or some weird sort of lesser aspect of Him, or simply beings
> placed in Glorantha for us to make use of. But they are not in the
> same category at all (despite the similarity of the descriptive term).
>
>
> David Dunham <mailto:dunham@pensee.com>
> Glorantha/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:44:07 +1000
> From: "John Hughes" <nysalor@primus.com.au>
> Subject: Gloranthan Pregnancy
>
> This is a resend after my original disappeared into the predark. I have
made
> the customary propitiatory sacrifices to Porchango, who is doubtless
feeling
> disgruntled in the wake of the NASDEC crash. Apologies if my sub-caffeine
> babbling suddenly pops up in duplicate.
>
> Alex and Joerg - thanks for your thoughtful responses on death, hell and
> heroquesting. And Joerg, those *technical* bits on archery were brillig!
>
> Original post -
>
>
> Heys Folks,
>
> So Gian, how was Damascus? :)
>
> GLORANTHAN PREGNANCY
>
> Roger McCarthy:
> > (BTW how long do pregnancies last in Glorantha - 4 seasons would be
about
> > right assuming that Gloranthan days are about 20% longer than earth days
> > so
> > the birth would be somewhere between Fire season 1604 and Fire/1605).
>
> As Alex noted, there has been ongoing inconsistency on this, and
> reflecting as it does on the basic forms of Gloranthan time and space, its
> about time it got finally sorted.
>
> I asked Greg about it directly a few weeks ago, and his response then was
>
> >9/12 OF A [Gloranthan] YEAR.
>
> That is, in direct ratio to human pregnancy (in months) against the terran
> year. I've refined that to 294/365 when calculating human and domestic
> animal pregnancies. [Ratio of Gloranthan days in a year to earthly days
in
> a
> year]. Using that equation, Gloranthan human pregnancy is 280*294/365 =
225,
> which I'd shorten to 224 days or 4 seasons, giving the same day and week
to
> both conception and birth, (barring Sacred Time complications ).
>
> Estrus cycles, however, I would keep as the equivalent number of days as
on
> Earth.
>
> Hopefully some sort of unequivocal answer will feature in the Orlanthi
life
> section of Thunder Rebels, though as yet I make no promises or
predictions.
>
> On earth, animal fertility cycles have evolved around the cycles of the
> seasons, with mating, pregnancy and birth occurring at the most
> environmentally opportune times. Because of this, I think there is a lot
of
> work still to be done in understanding Gloranthan animal life-cycles,
rather
> than relying too heavily on direct mathematical correspondences. Is this
> John making yet *another* plea to take everyday animal life and non-terran
> seasonal progressions more seriously? I'm afraid it is. <g>.
>
> Cheers
>
> John
> _____________________________________________
> nysalor@primus.com.au John Hughes
> johnp.hughes@dva.gov.au
>
> Language is like a cracked kettle on which we beat out tunes
> for bears to dance to, while all the time we long to move the stars
> to pity.
>
> - -Flaubert, 'Madam Bovary'.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:07:45 +0300
> From: Mikko Rintasaari <
rintasaa@mail.student.oulu.fi>
> Subject: The Wooing of Mother Language
>
> Nice work Andrew! Snatched and adopted. >:D
>
> -Adept
>
> I think I think... Therefore I think I am.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:14:16 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph@bigfoot.com>
> Subject: Rathori bows
>
> Joerg Baumgartner:
>
> > > Player's Book: Genertela Book gives the Rathori the Longbow
> > > whereas the Pentans and CharUn only have a composite bow.
>
> >I use bows for various kinds of target archery, and I want to testify
> >thatwhile the longbow has a lot of good things to say about it, it is by
> >no means the "better" bow.
>
> And much of the criteria you listed had little do with either
> range or penetration, the topics at hand.

>
> > >>The Turkish (and Mongol) composite bows were nearly as
> > >>good, if not as good, as the longbow.
>
> >The best of these were superior to the best longbows in terms of
> >penetration and range.
>
> But the CharUn are not uniformly wielding the best of these bows.

> I would expect the best bows to be in the hands of the strongest
> and wealthiest clans and even then limited to the chief or his
> henchmen.
>
> > > But the CharUn are neither Turkish nor Mongols.
>
> >Every Asian horse nomad invasion, e.g. the Huns, used bows not too
> >different from these.
>
> Which merely indicates that they would have had some type of
> composite bow (hunnish archaeological remains are rather sparse),
> not that their bows were the equivalent of turkish or mongolian
> composite bows in range and firepower.

>
> The Athenians in their heyday had ready access to Scythian
> mounted archers whom they used to keep public order and
> could call upon similarly equipped Thracians. If their bows
> were comparable to the turkish or mongolian, then one would
> expect the Athenians to have made greater use of those troops
> in their wars and not javelin-throwing Peltasts.

>
> >I fail to see why the Char Un should use vastly inferior composite bows
> >compared to the real world.
>
> Considering that they don't have stirrups and work with an
> army that uses phalanxes, I find it more appropriate to
> model CharUn military technology on the Scythians.

>
> > > The relevance as to how [the difference between mounted archers
> > > [and foot archers] affects who has the better bow is what?
>
> >Try shooting a Parthian shot from the saddle with a longbow, and you'll
> >change your mind about "better".
>
> But the Rathori don't shoot from horseback, so what's the relevance?

>
> >The horse archers will likely lose badly against well-positioned foot
> >archers, but foot archers on the march are as likely little more than
> >target praxis for horse archers.
>
> And a Rathori in ambush or a Rathori sniping upon a lone outrider is what?
>

> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:02:53 +0800
> From: David Cake <dave@difference.com.au>
> Subject: Proxies
>
> The fallout following the death of an Emperor, with the Egis
> seeking parts of his soul in the otherworld, the proxies who must be
> confronted to regain important parts of the Emperors power, and so on, is
> all sounding like an excellent basis for a series of Hero Wars adventures
> for Lunar Heroquesters.
> Cheers
> David
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:40:47 +0900
> From: "TERRA INCOGNITA" <inarsus-ferilt-z@mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
> Subject: Malkioni Fanaticism/ Wargod Mithra
>
> I (We?) must pace down for Glorantha Digest now in my physical condition.
If
> I have friends in this Circle, I should please friends pray for my Good
Luck
> to God(s).
>
> Gian Gero:
> >To the GD audience: where/when in Glorantha can we find something similar
> to
> >an Opus Dei or Jesuit Ordinis or Inquisition Tribunal or Controriforma
> >Movement? Where/when do pilgrimages, of the Western (Loskalmi or
Seshnegi)
> >kind do take place?
>
>
> Though my Knowledge about this theme is limited for covering this
question,
> some
> article in Genertela book, Many Fanzines such like Tales#13, Tradetalk,
> Codex may help to mention about parties of Malkioni Enthusianism.
> Please see and explain comment about heads below.
>
> New Hrestoli
> Watchdog (maybe its name derived from Crest Symbol of Talor) Council and
> Swallow Knight Order (IMO, Sir Meriatan dares to Walking Tightrope
Heretical
> Heroquest for National Power even though he is Pious Orthodox New
> Hrestoli: INRW, Many officialized RW Saints under Roman Catholic in Feudal
> Age
> swam the border among Orthodoxy and Heresy as Jeanne De' Ark, Pierre
> Abelard, Catharine in Sienna. Before openning of Sindics Ban, there aren't
> needness for Power Seeking against Outer World.) Northpoint & Southpoint
are
> their capiral, but Sogolotha Manbrola existed as Brithini and Half-Breed
> Waertagi dominate this city with treaty.
>
> Brithini
> Pentagon (My finger slipped) Palace of the Pentacle was generally
> indifferent to Outside World as far as it don't have to do with them. But
> some exception has existed in Historical Current from Ancient Age.
>
> Rokari
> Order of Golden Lance (Sir Alverius Canardin was killed under Political
> Conflict in Sog City in "How the West was One" ) and Inquisition may show
> most fanatical attitude to their doctrine for their current position
against
> Outer Power. Many Witchhunters may act as Hand of Saint Rokar and
justified
> their
> massacre of heretics. Leplain, Seguraine are Centers.
>
> Blackhouse County
> In New HW explanation in Issaries Site, Saint Atrox Order has very Strict
> Code in Harshland as Under Calvin Control in Geneve. Muse Roost is Center.
>
> Ralios
> Many Cult Systems compose Minority Groups and Dogmatism about Malkioni
> Sorcery Teaching: IMO, Christian Attitude to Other Area Religion is
similar
> to Stygian Heresy rather than Mainstream Malkionism. Stygian Heresy might
> not have Proclamation Rite for Crusade against Enemy of Invisible God
after
> King Annmak, they may have another method as Controlling many greatest
> Artifact of Arkat. Many Centers exist: Arkhome in Tanisor, Zorakarkat.
>
>
> Question:
> To Viceroy of Ralios: David Dunham
>
> In Genertela Book, Duchy Sentanos is Stongest Nation in Modern Ralios:
(but
> weakened by current War against Otkorion and Siglorf Cult and failure of
> Summoning Arkat Incarnate), but I cannot understand Connection Tortun and
> Lady Erengazor with
> Rokari in Older Version Runequest #3 Deluxe Box Introduction Glorantha:
this
> older version mentioned Sentanos as One Hold of Rokari Influence.
> But Genertela Book said Sentanos as One center of Arkat arrival Movement
(it
> fails for some reason)
> and Penelope Love (Pen Name?) played in "How the West was One" as Lady of
> Feminism against tendency of Rokari Masculinism in Sog City.
>
>
> Question:
> To Viceroy of Lunar Empire: Martin Laurie & Nick Brooke
> What is the Connection of Cult between TakenEgi and Yelm Noble? The two
> similar cult how exist as in condition? Dara Happan "reluctant" Noble
> Citizen?
> In LE, many malfunctionized System like as Roman Empire controlled Gear of
> Imperial Machine: Lunar Imperial Presidium, Dara Happan Senate, Pelorian
> Council (Tales#17) and Demigods Egi on the Moonface.
>
>
>
>
> Mysitical Buddhism has clearly connected to Hindu Tantrism and Other Area
> mysticism, but fundamental source of occurance is unclear for both
Cultural
> History and Archaeology, Scholars disputed yet about which is their
> territorial China, India nor Another Region best source.
>
> In Japan, Kuukai (aka Kouhou, he often appeared Wise-wizard style in
> Japanese Legend for his superhuman Intelligence and Knowledge, fluency and
> Writing of Chinese Character from Childhood in Shikoku Island) visited
Tang
> Dynasty Capital Sian (now Xi'an), became One of VIP in Court during Short
> Visiting and became Successor of Mystical Sect Secret for his outstanding
> ability. After he return to Japan, he founded Temple Kongoubu, Mt Kouya in
> now Wakayama Municipality, South of Osaka.
>
> Tibetan Mysticism fascinated many foreign Dynasties like as Last Stage of
> Yuan Mongol Dynasty with another sect of Current Lama Buddhism, their
> corruption to Decadent date back to risk of this Sect to Orgiastic
Doctrine
> for Environment.
>
>
> Miroku Maitreya is revered One of Idol of Mystical Buddhism, he is
> Buddhisattiva until he and his disciples will illuminate themselves after
> 5,680,000,000 years. It has some large similarity to Persian-Indian God
> Mithra for attributes and archeologic line.
> Mithra was originally Indo-Aryan God of Law and Brother of God Varna. Many
> knows Mithras was revered in Roman Empire as Military God of Persia.
(Women
> cannot initiate this system as Roman Military) His Birthday was Winter
> Solstice (now We know this day as Christmas) for Oriental Sun God Nature.
> This Cult Idea such as "12 zodiac disciples at Last Supper" made many
early
> Christian Priests see the evidence of "Satan's Paeody, mockery for Sacred
> Teaching"
> Many Imagination occured from exaggerated Idea "If Christ didn't conquer
> Europe, Mithra may reign this world now."
> Christian "Gray Adventure in Gray Heroplane (maybe Japanese express "Poor
> Gray" as
> elegant or Suited to the Way of Wabi-Sabi)" may be replaced Bountyful
> Paganistic World as Hell Volume of Dante.
>
> FREX, another source of Role Playing pop culture is Heroic Fantasy such as
> Weird Tales.
> (One source is maybe Oxford Pedantic Inklings?)
> Robert E Howard (Mother-Complexious, Whitism, Man Chauvinism Pulp-Writer
> even in his Age.) made Hybolia World much mentioned about Most revered
Light
> God of Civilization as Mithra even though World Setting is before Glacial
> Period (But Noble Barbarian never reveres Soft Civilized Way.) Worship of
> Mithraism also exists in Guin "Saga" (I think this word application to
World
> Longest Story is miserable for this story theme is far from Nordic
Coldwind
> Air.) with Name of Miroku (Japanese name for Maitreya)
> as One of tributary current of them, this Japan-Europian Pop Cultural
> Production now may became a Head of Guinness Book of Record (published by
> Beer Company of London) as the Longest "Literature" written by One Author.
> (Omnibus styles by plural Authors are much more Volume as Some Space
Opera)
> And if you see Whitewolf Publishment, Mithras is name of Vampire Prince
> since Roman Imperial Day.
>
>
> Question:
> To Viceroy of Kralorela: Alex Ferguson
> Some Mystics has Power canceling some magical effect (Hero Wars Web
document
> hinted)
> with Some Mental Status like Illumination ignoring Cult Ristriction,
> resistance to "Chaos" existence.
> As Sheng Seleris & his Ruh? Jolaty (Zho Lath Ehy aka Zolathi) studied Some
> Series of Mysticism in InsTor (Install?) Camp, they cannot harm Nysalorian
> Mystic Kerestus in FS, and may these two mystic cult intermingled and
formed
> Zolathi Mystic School
> Synopsis of Sheng Seleris documented Order of Day (officialized Lunar
> Illuminati) called as Dolathi. If even physical law is magical effect of
> Glorantha, how much Mystics ignored them with their Enlightenment Stage?
>
>
> >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:49:45 +0100 (BST)
> >From: Alex Ferguson <abf@cs.ucc.ie>
> >Subject: Re: Scary Scaly Sex
>
> >> Joerg [Baumgartner]:
> >> >> Not quite correct. They have hatched from eggs laid by neotenic
> >> >> dragons. They need to undergo several metamorphoses to become
> >> >> neotenic dragons.
> >>
> >> Alex [Ferguson]:
> >> > 'WLIO' (aka, IIRC), I think Trotsky is right on this one, the
> >> > reference puzzled me too. The parental dragons are described
> >> > as 'immature', this is true, but the dragonewts themselves are
> >> > described, elsewhere as 'neotenic'. Though if you consider them
> >> > the same 'species' as dragons, the problem perhaps resolves
> >> > itself (though not very satisfactorily).
> >>
> >> Ok, let's tackle this from the other end, then.
>
>
> And IIRC, mature Dragons are Androgynites in "Dragon Pantheon"
>
> >Sounds even ruder! *smirk, smirk...*
>
>
> >> - What happens when mature dragons mate? How many are needed, how many
> >> eggs are produced, what happens to the eggs?
>
> >Beats the heck out of me. As you imply, doesn't sound like a good
> >thing to be within the blast radius of... One might argue that
> >the very act of mating was a sign of 'immaturity', i.e., not being
> >an actual True Dragon.
>
>
> >> - Can dragons still procreate from self-dismemberment? Will the
> >> resulting dragons be able to reach the status of the parent, or are
they
> >> permanently inferior?
>
>
> If Dragon wants Evolution, mating is needed for genetic possibility, but
> Dragons are perfect and want Devolution for World Entanglement.
>
> >Another toughie. I'd say, off the top of my head, that prevailing
> >belief (i.e., if you could wring any sense out of EWF scholars,
> >dragonewts, and Kralori mystics (and good luck with any of that
> >nutty bunch, frankly), and there was any sort of consensus between
> >them...) it might be along the lines of, the draconic consciousness
> >has to continue to 'devolve' until it reaches a certain critical
> >point of individuation (like a 'newt, or a human), and only at that
> >point can it start to 'rebound'. Think 'Big Crunch', as it were.

>
> I have read some document about Gloranthan Dragons can perceive reverse
> current Time as Merlin in "Once and Future King" of Arthurian Writer T.H.
> White
>
> >> >> However, Sandy proposed that they have five sexes, one for each
> >> >> stage (including dragonet), and are thus able to breed. If so, I
> >> >> wonder which stage is capable of laying the egg large enough to
> >> >> hatch a warrior dragonewt.
> >
> >> > Ooooh, that's *gotta* hurt... I wondered about this too, it does
seem
> >> > a little odd. Perhaps the egg itself grows as the 'newt develops, or
> >> > some such thing. For the sake of argument, I'll propose that if this
> >> > does indeed happen, it's the warrior which is the 'oviparous sex'.
> >>
> >> Or this requires lots of "perfection of Body"-like dragonewt effects.
> >> Possibly all of them, hampering the involved dragons in their
> >> development. (This starts sounding like "the Brithini are getting
> >> babies"...)
>
> >You mean that they'd have to assume dragon form to some extent to
> >do this? Interesting thought.
>
> Maybe they only awake in Game World and dream for RW player's
> subconsciousness.
>
> >> >> Would it be correct to say that the individual 'newt only is
> >> >> the mobile manifestation of the developing egg, much like a
> >> >> dream dragon?
> >>
> >> > That sounds at any rate just the sort of thing whacked-out draconic
> >> > philosophers would say, at any rate. ;-)
> >>
> >> Actually, I was quite serious about this.
>
> >Did I doubt it for a moment? ;-) (Not to be read as a direct
> >accusation that you're a whacked-out draconic philosopher, mind...)
>
>
> >> If the dragon's
> >> (sub)consciousness develops within the egg, and it is creating a
> >> permanent manifestation in the world of illusions (known as reality to
> >> humans and their ilk), this would explain many irrationalities.
>
> >But it doesn't really explain their purpose, or indeed why they'd
> >have any purpose in the manifest world at all. If this were a
> >strictly apt comparison, they'd be more like certain EI mystics,
> >denying the material world wholesale, with their newtly manifestation
> >just a spiritual error which the egg is striving not to improve, but
> >to eliminate, as opposed to be anything much like Kralori draconic
> >mysticism. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since any attempt
> >to rationalise 'newt behavior, much less religious thinking, in terms
> >of any human system, even as one as annoying bizarre as the Kralorelans',
> >is really at best only likely to be a crude working model, or more
> >likely an outright guess...
>
> Kralorelans, Kralori are Draconist, Theist, Mystician in their Geographic
> Circumstance.
> If you can see at least Some Human nature in them.
>
> >> An Inhuman King seems to have two effects:
> >>
> >> 1) It projects the aura wherein the 'newt cities avoid the worst
> >> entanglements of the world of illusions to the eggs.
> >>
> >> 2) If my suspicion about the "mother" being created from the collected
> >> 'newt effects, it contributes the highest set of draconic magics to the
> >> mother.
>
> >I can see the logic of those notions.
>
>
> >> Any draconic sexuality is likely to be eye-watering. Wyverns are said
to
> >> be the emanations of draconic wet dreams. If so, flying appears to be
an
> >> important part of 'newt or dragon sexuality, rapacious hunger another.
I
> >> won't ponder the poisonous barbed tail right now, though...
>
> >I'm most grateful for that, at least.
>
>
> Sorrow Dream?
>
> >> How dinosaur-ridden is Kralorela - do they have any at all, or does the
> >> benevolent presence of the empire correct these aberrations of
weakness?
>
> >Naturally the latter; any brontosauri (have these been retconned in
> >Glorantha, or just in RL? <g>) you perceive to have just sat on your
> >house are obviously caused by a faulty mind-set on your part. Stop
> >introspecting!
>
> Dragonewt is not Mystic.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #555
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