From: Ian Cooper (coops@dial.pipex.com)
Date: Sat 08 Jul 2000 - 12:40:34 EEST
Alex Ferguson
>I didn't even think your earlier post was disagreeing with my contention...
>Are you saying that there's a legal entity corresponding to a bloodline
>that receives and pays wergeld, that its received and paid by a number
of individuals, according to (patrilineal?) kindship, or what?
>
I'm disagreeing. IMHO the "bloodline" id the fundamental unit of Orlanthi
society.
If a clan has 500-1000 individuals that is too large a group not to have
some kind of lower stage social structure. Other people on the clan may be
far too distant in a structure of this size for you to have any
relationship. Think of institutions you have experienced of this size and
how organisation was almost always at alower level.
IMHO many other aspects of clan level organisation in Orlanthi society draw
from celtic clans (marriage customs), so the notion of derhfine[household],
fine[bloodline], cennel[clan], tuath[tribe] is a model for most Orlanthi ,
so I tend to use them as a model at this level if in doubt. For the Celts
the fine [5th cousins] was the basic unit of social orgnisation. But
geherally I see Orlanthi as a nebulous term like Indo-European, within which
there are cultures: Hoertling, Aloakoring [Germanic, Celtic] and local
examples: Quivini, Hendieki [Norse, Anglo-Saxon]. It also seems to fit with
the Norse model where the bloodline is the primary social unit which forms
part of the bygth that possess a thing where various bloodlines resolve
differences, or the anglo-saxon hundreds and shire courts.
To me this fits with for example Tales description of the Greydog clan where
it seems that individual bloodlines are in competition within the clan.
David Dunham
>The bloodline is like a black box as far as the clan is concerned
Alex Ferguson
>between different bloodlines,
>alleged illegalities are dealt with by the chief, ring, and/or clan
>moot (as appropriate to the case); within clans it's a matter of
>formal law suit, which is the point where wergelds are appropriate.
In other words it is an atomic unit, it cannot be divided any further, so it
is the basic unit. The relationships between bloodlines in clan is mirrored
by clans in a tribe, tribes in a confederation, tribes/confederations ina
kingdom.
From KoS p 250.
"Each Person has a bloodline. It is the smallest social unit which can be
isolated in terms of law, custom and tradition."
David Dunham
>Yes, the clan is the social atom. (Yes, it's composed of bloodlines,
>but these, quark-like, don't exist outside the clan.)
True for many Orlanthi the clan is the basic unit of external relationships,
a single bloodline that has external relations is in effect then a clan, but
I don't believe that the clan is as fundamental we think when we begin to
look at other Orlanthi cultures.
The advantage of this model is that it is applicable to a number of
different organisations of Orlanthi society reflecting there diversity, but
still keeping the basic atomic unit of the bloodline.
We have the classic Oralnthi model bloodline->clan-> tribe which is probably
the extant amongst Sartari, Ralians and Wenelians. In Sartar at least of
course we also have the tribe->[confederation]->kingdom additions to the
system, and the Ralians do seem to have a confederation model in places.
I suspect civilised Prax is similiar in model to Sartar, but the tribe level
probably does not exist due to low populatin levels and we would probaby
have bloodline->clan->confederation with the confederation being centered on
the city ring of Pavis.
But in Hendirikeland we have a different scenario. Joerg has suggested that
he sees these Orlanthi as Anglo-Saxon/early Norman rather than Norse/Celtic
and I would agree that it is a good model. Here we have a model of
king->baron->sherriff->bloodline as the sherriffs have replaced clan chiefs.
The clan has become instead the English shire with a resultant move towards
centralised authority (i.e. king->earl/jarl->[sherriff]/[hersar]->hundred
model that became king->baron->sherriff->bloodline under the Normans).
No knowledge of what the Tarshite set up is. We know they have hereditary
kings and the lunars, while IMHO the Lunars in Sartar are mainly Tarshite,
do seem to use the term duke a lot, when imposing new lords on conquered
areas - Duke Raus, Duke james Wulf. We also know that teheir women take
scalps. A Germanic tribe that served the Empire and carried on its
traditions, who imposed a hereditart kinghsip over the normal pattern of
election, and who take scalps in was were the Franks, and I have often felt
they ake a nice model for the Tarshites. The Carolingian social structure
would give us king->duke->count->bloodline.
I suspect that both Tarhsites and Hendriki still recognise clans as
alliances between bloodlines, but there political role is diminished by the
social structure which replacws them at the legal/external level by figures
imposed by a central authority and they loose all power in controlling
external relations.
In other words I am suggesting that while we often focus on the clan, it is
not the fundamental unit of organisation and as Orlanthi become *civilised*
begins to recede. Obviously if the Orlanthi were not so freedom loving we
would have an evoloution into feudalism, but I suspect it is this cultural
support of the free farmer that distiguishes Orlanthi and Western social
structures at this point.
As for bloodlines federating well that is how new clans are formed; although
the bloodlines of a clan may be related there is no requirement for them to
be. While it is not as well documented I would assume that bloodlines who
fell from favour in clans might end up starting anew, either as new clans
or or joining existing ones. This is surely where the Quivini come from
originally, as Colymars' bloodline seperates from the Orshanti to from the
Black Spear clan and heads to DP.
I realise that this movement down a level takes us from our traditional
point of focus, but I suspect as we come to consider wider areas of the
Orlanthi, especially those that form part of the Lunar Porvinces it may
prove a mnore useful tool.
Alex Ferguson
>Apart from wergeld, what does one need to be paying fines for?
Well some examples from Anglo-Saxon law: tresspass, in settlement of
divorce, breach of hospitality, supply of weapons to a party in dispute,
injuries caused by animals or to animals, any damage to anothers farm
holding ("I don't care about the broos, you burnt down Harald's cornfield!")
accidental or otherwise, harbouring sorcerors (although to AS punishable by
death), breach of oath, harbouring outlaws, sexual assault (though Orlanthi
regard rape as a capital crime), cutting down someone else's trees, false
imprisonment etc.
Alex Ferguson
>This is exactly why I think the responsibility lies with the clan, since
>it's the clan that (technically) owns the wealth necessary to pay
>it, at least commonly.
Alex Ferguson
>(And often may be 'traditionally distributed' the same way for generations,
of course.)
>Something can be personal property, in
>which case it belongs to an individual, or odal, in which case it
>belongs to the clan. It can't be 'bloodline property', at least not
>in any model I'm aware of.
The use of the word odal creates a fair amount of confusion here I think.
AFAIK odal refers to *hereditary* rights of onership to land. To the Norse
it esablished their freedom, unlke the English carl who owed rent to his
lord and held his land from him (this relative level of freedom was
reflected by crl's from the Danelaw commanding a greater weregild). I
assume that it was this emphasis on freedom that caused Greg to use odal
rights (to an allodium) as part of the Orlanthi tradition. Yet this seems
to have been ranslated to clan ownership in a way that removes the
fundamental freedom of the individual so important ot Orlanthi society.
Harold Finehair caused mass emigrations to Iceland when he removed these
Odal rights, by people who were terrified of loosing their inheritance. For
the chief to remove odal rights at the sacred time would surely cause
similiar dislocations (though yes probably happening under the lunars and
good for plots). In this case odal property is not clan property as such,
it is more that your use of it is an inherited right. If we assume that the
clan recognises and assigns odal rights to bloodlines then the land and
property may not be yours, but your children can inherit them. The odal
model did not cover livestock etc. To me making Orlanthi property communal
and sispensed at the whim of the chief undermines the free farmer model
drawn from Icelandic sources and so fundamental to our appreciation of who
the Orlanthi are.
Marriage:
Alex Ferguson
>I've wondered about this, though I can't recall KoS being clear
>(even contradictorily...) on this. I eventually plumped for
>exogamous bloodlines, though of necessity marriage within a clan
>is a less formal thing than inter-clan marriage.
I agree with you on this one.
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