From: Alex Ferguson (abf@cs.ucc.ie)
Date: Thu 31 Aug 2000 - 02:19:43 EEST
Donald Oddy:
It can be as messy as it likes, but the problem with the thread is
> Both Gaelic and Norse culture and by analogy Orlanthi are family
You're implying that a bloodline is both a extension and a formalisation
> So given that the family is the primary bond, it follows that if
Since this is a quite different conclusion than John H and I arrive at
> However the clan they live with will
The children will be of the clan that the form of marriage provides
> Of course this leaves a lot of untidy ends which cause all sorts
It's not that simple, since another clan is involved (in the cases
To put it (I hope) concisely: we know that the Orlanthi organise
Cheers,
------------------------------
> I've been following this discussion but feel you are all trying
> to make it far to precise, I think it is far messier than this.
a basic lack of (and disagreement about) the definition of some
fairly fundamental concepts. If it were a matter of "a bloodline
[say] is the thing I point to when I say 'bloodline'" that'd be
fair enough, but firstly, I don't think that's true, and secondly,
even if it were, we'd still want to know what a _typical_ Heortling
bloodline was like, the sort of range of variation that routinely
occurs, etc. There will be local, and not-so-local customs and
practices which determine what a bloodline looks like, what it
acts like (if it acts at all per se), which isn't to say that said
customs won't themselves often have exceptions and anomalies.
> based with bloodlines, clans and tribes being built from that
> base. Thus the first loyalty is to the immediate family - parents,
> spouse, brothers, sisters and children.
of some more basic notion of a 'family', here. I'd question this
assumption. To take the Gaels, for them the derbhfine in
essence _is_ the family. It's not some abstract or higher-order
construct. (Whether this is best translated as 'bloodline' is
another matter. I don't myself think it's especially like the
Heortling variety. If you asked a H. who his 'family' were, you'd
likely get a list of the people who lived in the same hearth as he
did.)
> a couple come from different clans they technically become members
> of both clans on marriage.
from reading KoS, I'd disagree what this 'follows' at all.
> tend to be the stronger link and more importantly the children
> will be of that clan and that bloodline.
for. This, at least is clear and explicit. (And yes, it does
generally correspond to the clan where the couple live.)
> of problems over who is entitled to what when people fall out and
> who is responsible for who. Basically the clan chief gets the job
> of deciding and will generally fall back on precedent unless it
> would clearly cause injustice. The precedent may not even be the
> same in different clans but until someone makes a legal case, it
> doesn't matter.
we're especially concerned with at present). Though I suppose
the local chief or ring gets to make this sort of decision in the
first instance, and then wait and see if the other party's clan
kicks up a stink about it...
themselves into hearths, and steads, We know that they have
bloodlines, and clans. How do these relate to each other? Are
there certain invariable patterns? What the the common ones?
Alex.
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