From: Donald R. Oddy (donald@grove.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu 07 Sep 2000 - 02:55:03 EEST
In message <200009051845.LAA07004@chaosium.com> owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com (The Glorantha Digest) writes:
>
>From: Alex Ferguson <abf@cs.ucc.ie>
>
>But what do you mean by 'immediate' family? The familiar modern
>focus on nuclear families isn't necessarily the most helpful starting
>point.
The definition of family in KoS is near enough, the point I'm making
is that while the law may say that you can be held responsible for
your second cousins actions the tie between you and him is far less
than that between you and your brother.
>Modern rural Irish cultural tells us more about modern culture
>everywhere, than it does about ancient Celtic practice, much
>less about the Orlanthi.
Actually rural Irish culture it is remarkably different from modern
city cultures and fits very closely with the ideas expressed in the
Brehon legal form - just the top layers have been chopped off. I
appreciate it is dangerous to assume minimal changes over the
centuries but it provides a workable basis for the lower social
levels which are largely ignored in legal documents.
>That's what I think happens, but I disagree with your conclusion.
>Your husband and children are still your kin, clan membership
>nothwithstanding.
Ok, what happens when two clans who have a lot of intermarriages fall
out? What do the wives do? If they stay with their families and work
with that clan then the family bond is stronger than clan. Alternatively
there are two groups of women leaving their children behind to return
to their clan because they aren't trusted.
>Orlanthi society is generally patrin_lineal_, so that's not a problem
>per se. Given an accepted ancestor, the membership is pretty
>clearly defined.
I should have checked in KoS before posting.
>What I'm not really seeing much addressed, is,
>what does a bloodline _do_, if it's a corporate entity, but notably
>distinct from members of a given hearth, and members of a given
>stead. If a bloodline sometimes corresponds to one of these, and
>sometimes not, then having a distinct corporate existence seems
>to me somewhat unlikely.
I'm not sure "corporate" is the right word to use here given the
connotations with modern commercial practices but I can't think
of a better one. The way I see it working is that a bloodline
will have several hearths which may or may not be part of the
same stead. Property (other than land) is legally owned by the
bloodline although tending to be used by a particular hearth
which provides a practical means of splitting property when
the bloodline splits. Land is owned by the clan but bloodlines
have a right to work their specific bits subject to various
rules. This sort of multi-level ownership of land is very common
in agricultural societies. A stead is a group of hearths usually
centred around a carl with half-carls and cottars gathering
together for strength and company. Rarely would a whole stead
be made up of one bloodline but it is possible, particularly
when a new stead is created.
Alex Ferguson in reply to Ian Cooper
>I think it's misleading to compare it to a 'corporate fine', but there
>generally _is_ a corporate character to the clan itself, The Celtic
>analogy takes one only so far -- and indeed most RW do, since I
>can't really think of a comparable case which such a large, and often
>explicitly amorphous, group has a corporate character to it. But
>nevertheless I think it does. (c.f. bunfights ibid, such as whether
>weregild was payable by clan or by bloodline) I know many people
>seem keen to get rid of or tone this down (either due to its alleged
>unplayability, its un-RW-ness, its crypo-Communism (and/or an
>excessively Republican voting record on the part of the speaker <g>)),
>but KoS and the Orlanthi info in _Genertela_ seemed to me fairly
>clear on this point, so I'm sticking with it...
Well I just can't imagine a human society managing all property on
the basis of group ownership where the group is hundreds or even
thousands strong. Land certainly, because a clan needs to get most
productive use of it but even there I see individual bloodlines
having the right to continue using "their" bit of clan land as
long as they still had an ox team to work it and did so.
- --
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/
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