From: Donald R. Oddy (donald@grove.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu 14 Sep 2000 - 02:40:48 EEST
In message <200009122318.QAA08358@chaosium.com> owner-glorantha-digest@chaosium.com (The Glorantha Digest) writes:
>
[Bride stealing]
David Weihe
> Modern Orlanthi have far too much Ernaldan influences to really
>allow any actual bride-stealing to take place.
Alex Ferguson
Good Orlanthi responses there. :)
>From: Alex Ferguson <abf@cs.ucc.ie>
[Warfare between clans of marriage partners]
>OTOH, there must surely be a Vingan myth for this situation, since
>for them, there bleedin' well had better _not_ 'be another way'...
>
Something to do with breaking heads on all sides I would imagine.
>> The average stead would have members of maybe three or four bloodlines
>> and the reason for this is spread of occupations. In order to be
>> largely self sufficent a stead needs carls, cottars, pig tenders
>> and even stickpickers. I don't see a bloodline rich enough to own
>> an ox team and plough allowing some individuals to be so poor as
>> to be reduced to stickpicking.
>
>Again you're assuming bloodline property, which is (in the sense
>my pedantic philsopher friends would approve of) begging the
>question. I'm not at all sure about the social dynamics of this,
>either: why is a large mix of occupations/statuses necessary? It'd
>be quite possible for a smallish stead, at least, to be focused on
>just one main economic activity.
That level of specialisation in agriculture is a modern trend. A
>But the example is handy enough, since it illustrates what I think
I'm not sure what you mean by 'social unit' here. If you're asking
>It strikes me as odd, to say the least that one
I think the difficulty lies with the idea of communal property
>> More likely an unrelated bloodline
Aren't they? The paragraph I am referring to is in Jalk's book;
"A household is a settlement which often includes members of more than
That I take to mean that a stead is where a household lives and
>> In KoS a bloodline is described as the smallest social unit in terms
stead would usually grow its own vegetables and fruit, keep its
own livestock, make it's own clothes etc. Trading between steads
at clan markets would be for luxuries, surpluses and occasional
crops which could not be grown in a particular location. Furthermore
Oranthi agriculture is reliant on a grain crop (e.g wheat or barley).
This is a crop which requires very little labour for most of the
year but a great deal at harvest time. Unless you are proposing a
large pool of itinerant labourers, as was the practice in England
in the 17th, 18th & 19th Centuries, you can't have a stead specialising
in producing a grain crop. Equally to maintain an ox team for ploughing
you need a herd of cattle so that involves herders and milkmaids.
On a small stead many of those occupations will be combined but there
will still be specialisation and that inevitably leads to differing
status. This doesn't of course mean that every stead produces
everything in exactly the same proportions they will tend to produce
surpluses in whatever they are best at but it will be a rare stead
which trades for common neccesities.
>is the key question: where you have a stead or household consisting
>of several bloodlines, which of them is the 'social unit', in
>operative terms?
who makes decisons it will be the senior specialist in the matter
with conflicts resolved by the acknowledged leader who will usually
be the head of the senior bloodline.
>would have 'communal property' which is actually owned at social
>right-angles to the actual (micro-)community in which ones lives.
itself which has virtually disappeared in our modern society. All
that's left is the communal property of a married couple which
tends to be based around a single place. So the closest modern
comparison would be where one partner takes an item of communal
property to work. It's still communal property but exists in a
different community.
>> chooses to live near to a good source of income and so becomes
>> part of the stead. KoS confirms this but uses the word household
>> rather than stead.
>
>Because they're not the same thing. What's KoS's "confirmation",
>specifically?
the last paragraph under bloodline, family and household (Pg. 250
in my copy):
one bloodline. The families live co-operatively, each receiving their
offical allotted part of the stead from the clan, and with the daily
management handled by the local household head."
works. I suppose stead could alternatively refer to all the clans
land but isn't the word "tula" usually used for that?
>> of _law_ as well as custom and tradition.
>
>It does say this, but what it actually means by this is as clear
>as mud. ;-)
>
>> Effectively that means the law does not recognise property
>> as owned by an individual, family or household. Within the bloodline
>> there may well be an agreement that that is Ragnar's spade but legally
>> it belongs to the bloodline.
>
>That's explicitly not true; from G:G, we know they _do_ have property
>at the clan and personal level. Household and stead property may
>be, as you say, something of a matter of custom and practice, rather
>than law: the hearthmistress's personal property, or the leading
>person's of a stead, may often 'act as if' household/stead property.
>And conversely, odal property may be 'traditionally for the use of'
>a particular stead or hearth, with a simimlar result, from as it
>were the opposite direction.
>
>Bloodline property OTOH I see no evidence of, and no logic for.
In a sense it's a legal issue only. If Harald takes Ragnar's spade
and they are of the same bloodline they will take the disagreement
to the bloodline head who has the final say. If they are not of the
same bloodline then it becomes a matter for the clan lawspeakers and
potentially the clan chief unless the heads of the two bloodlines
can reach agreement first.
This is consistent with Brehon and Norse law AIUI - don't bother
the chief and lawyers with family matters. At the same time it
defines a clear set of resources to collect fines from, with the
law being able to take the most convient bits to satisfy the
judgement and leave the bloodline head with the job of sharing
the penalty among the members. Certainly where the property is
on different steads and used by different people that's going
to be an awful headache.
- --
Donald Oddy
http://www.grove.demon.co.uk/
------------------------------
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