From: Peter Larsen (plarsen@mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Thu 09 Nov 2000 - 19:17:41 EET
Peter Metcalfe says:
>I don't see how you can dismiss the Taborites as "extremely poorly
>equipped and badly led" considering that they fought in well-equipped
>wagon fortresses-laagers and were ably led by one Zizka Hus, a
>distinguished knight.
The average Taborites were rural and urban poor, hardly model troops.
>As for the Muenster Anabaptists, they managed to seize control of
Zizka (spell him as you will) was a fairly talented commander, but he was
badly compromised by splintering within the spiritual arm of his movement.
(It's also worth noting that Zizca and his commanders were lower nobility
and disinclined to support the egalitarian desires of their
co-religionists.) Eventually, Zizka spent his time supressing the fringes
within his own movement (e.g. the Adamites), and the Taborites were
eventually crushed by their more moderate Hussite "brothers." So yes, I'd
say the Taborites as a whole were badly led, despite the effectiveness of
individual leaders (besides Zizka, Adam-Moses seemed pretty capable of
getting things done).
>the city after which the local bishop retook after besieging it for
>a year. While they may have been poorly equipped and badly led
>(insofar as Jan Beuckelzoon attempts to relieve the siege by
>charging out with only twenty men), I don't consider their success
>to be overly startling, considering they never managed to raise
>much support from Anabaptists elsewhere in Germany.
That's typical of the impact I'm talking about: intense but local. They
managed to hold Muenster for about a year against a combined army of
Catholics and Protestants (which took some doing, I suspect) while managing
a complete reorganization of society within the city. That's reasonably
successful in my book. The wider impact of Millenial groups is the way
elements of their philosophies kept getting recycled by similar groups. The
central ideas of these movements recur pretty regularly in Europe from the
13th through the 17th century. In Ralios, where city-states are the norm,
groups like these could ptentially seize a whole country before being
beaten down by their neighbors. (The Flagellants were relatively low key
and orthodox in Italy; they might have had another Muenster had they been
more "German" in their approach to flagellism.)
>>The
>>speed and ferocity of these movements say a lot about the anxiety
>>and dissatisfaction of Medieval Europe, even during the "high water"
>>period of the crusades.
>
>I don't think so. All it indicates to me is that the
>spirituality of the medieval community which was normally
>channeled into supporting the social could be extremely
>destructive if directed against it. I don't see why a
>malkioni/christian who supports the ruling order or follows
>an orthodox practice (like the Whyte Wyzards) should be
>seen as less religious than one who follows a condemned
>creed (like the Perfecti).
Anxieties and disatisfactions are what allows that spirituallity to be
turned against society. I don't think supporters of the ruling class are
less religious, although they are likely to be less fanatical. The orthodox
churches are likely to be wary of any group that wanders too far from the
center of their path, and with good reason (the Franciscans produced the
Spirituals produced the Fratricelli). Disgraced priests being forced into
seclusion, that sort of thing. Tensions are always going to exist between
segments of a Church that has both spiritual and temporal aims and powers.
>>However, these urges [for the restoration of the Autarchy] could
>>translate to the poor, especially the anxious poor (displaced peasants,
>>urban paupers), as a longing for the original Kingdom of Logic (however
>>that place is spelled) or,
>
>I have doubts about this for Safelstran religion is centred upon
>Arkat rather than the Kingdom of Logic. Longing for the Kingdom
>of Logic makes as much sense as Christians longing for King
>Solomon's time.
The longing in the Middle Ages wasn't for the Roman Empire, it was for a
fantasy kingdom loosely based on Biblical stories. Certainly the crusades
were driven (in part) by a feeling that the Kingdom of Israel was somehow
the rightful property of Christianity (obviously, Christ lived there, but
Medieval Christians badly wanted to absorb Jewish history while rejecting
the Jews). Maybe it would be better to say that fantasy kingdoms built
around half-understood stories about Danmalastan, Malkion, etc. feature in
(at least parts of) peasant lay religion in the West. Especially in
Seshnela and the conservative parts of Ralios, where the Farmer caste has
to resent its unending servitude.
and, to wander into the discussion between David Cake and Peter Metcalfe:
>Kaballah may appear rational but its practice does not involve
>rigorous application of rational thought which the Zzaburites
>are meant at least meant to be doing. And the Golden Dawn is
>even worse.
The Kaballah was fairly rigorous for its day. In a fantasy world where its
>We already have the Malkioni (impersonal) conception of the Cosmos
exploration could bear more fruit, maybe it would be more so. Similarly, in
our world Astrology is a discredited philosophy (which once had some very
rigorous adherents) that works quite well for the Busarians (who aren't,
perhaps, as logical as the Zzaburites but who have an extremely rigorous
moral philosophy).
>(the five actions as the forms, elements and powers explore
>themselves). So why do the need for the sephiroth?
Is it possible to construct a Kabbala-like system around the five actions
>Fidelity to the laws. Development of their logical faculties through
and those basic powers? I don't think importing the Kabbala whole would be
good for anyone, but it might make a template for something....
I like this as a succinct statement of Zzaburite philosophy. My only
quibble is that many of Gloranthan natural laws do not resemble RW laws.
The stars do affect people's destinies (and people affect the stars), those
old laws of "similarity, contagion, etc" really work. So the Zzaburite
logic should not match modern rationality too closely.
Lastly, Mark Galeotti says some good things about the Lunar occupation.
Peter Larsen
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