Carmania and Historical Parallels

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z@mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Mon 30 Dec 2002 - 12:12:56 EET


Me:
> > http://www.btinternet.com/~Nick_Brooke/carmania/bullshah.htm
> > Check: Agincourt (Battlefield of 100 War between France and
> > England for the wealth of Flandre.) See Shakespeare's "Henry
> > Fifth"? English Longbows defeated French Crossbows and Knights.....

Thank you for your information, I didn't know that the "Victory Herald" died in the Carmanian March until you mentioned here. But (though I don't know enough about French History) there is no Jeanne D'ark in the portion of FS and France suffered long even after they lost in Agincourt.

Nick Brooke:
>
> This "parallel" is hardly overly European; any more than your comparison
> between the roles of the Japanese Emperor (under the Shogunate) and the
> impotent Dara Happan Emperor (after the Carmanian conquest) could be "too
> Japanese". In particular, it has *nothing* to do with longbows, crossbows,
> knights, Frenchmen, Henry V, etc.
>
Ok, Caliphs of Abbasyd under amirs of BOUYIDES(BUWAYHIDS) or Sultans of Seljuks.
Puppets but still holds religious leadership in certain status.

>Surandash: Most prolonged Capital of Carmania
If Kyoto is not appropriate...(Oh, but I wrote the memo for my personal
use....) . Well, some Chinese Empire Capirals like Chang'Ang.

As far as I know about Ancient Iranians, they built several capitals as Achaimenesians built Pasargadae, Susa, Persepolis. Parthians made Hecatompylos and Ctesiphon as their capital, Sassanians moved from Istakhr, Nishapur and Ctesiphone.
(I hope I don't mistake something here....)

I get a vague impression that Ancient Persians are Nomads (who wore pants) rather than the impression I got from Loren's and your work about the Army of Loskalm (Ten-Thousand) like heavy-armored riders like cataphracts of late Sassanian Army.

And like recent Queen's Rock's army of Alehandro.....Though I don't have studied Persians as profession, I don't know how far the image of "lowlander soft people of Pelanda and highland grim rock castles of Western Feudal Lords" is suited to any period of RW iranian image.

From the POV of Chinese History (as you might know, Japanese Older Culture is greatly influenced from China), some of fundamental theory is ignored like the "corruption of city life" (Ibn Haldun) though Chinese "farmers" have greatly suffered by the invasion of Nomad Powers more than Europeans. Like your parallel between Eurotas and Cephissos equal Sparta (Martial, Land Army, Brushness, Oligarchy) and Athens (Civilized, Decadent, Democracy) Germany (Brutal) and Byzantine (Decadent) I want to know about the knowledge which I certainly missed.

For Battle Tactics of Carmanians:

I used Google Persia+Iran+Cavalry+Military+Ancient Mesopotamia
http://www.dalton.org/groups/rome/Mesopotamia.html

Sassanian Military
http://pchome.grm.hia.no/~fsaljoug/SassMil.htm

Sassanian Cavalry
http://www.redrampant.com/ancients/per1.html

> Message: 3
> From: Svechin@cs.com
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 11:44:10 EST
> Subject: Carmanian tactics
> To: glorantha@rpglist.org
> Reply-To: glorantha@rpglist.org
>
> TIM asked:
> >Also I am interested in RW analogues for Carmanian war tactics esp wrt
> >Cavalry tactics, armour etc. Could anyone help on this ?
>
> Best period would be around 1150 Crusader states tactics mixed with a
dollop

> of 14th & 15th century Burgundy under Charles the Bold (esp his campaigns
> against the Swiss), however due to the odd blend of stirrup wearing shock
> cavalry mixed with actual hoplites, it is a bit difficult to put the
> Carmanians into a direct RW analogy. The Carmanians also field
Janissaries
> and city communal regiments of halberdeers and pikemen.
>
> Also it would help if you specified which period of Carmanian tactics you
> were looking for, they have evolved a lot over the millenia or so they
have
> been kicking around as a state.
>
> Books on Crusader tactics that are detailed yet a quick study would be:
>
> "Crusading Warfare 1097-1193" by R. C. Smail with the follow on to that
work
> "Warfare in the Latin East 1192-1291" by Christopher Marshall both
available
> from Cambridge or on Amazon.com.
>
> Verbruggen's "The Art of Warfare in Western Europe" is another excellent
read
> with much information on infantry in a medieval period. The Carmanians
field
> a strong infantry. Verbruggen will show why only states with a combined
arms
> force were triumphant in the long run.
>
> Due to the influence of the Char-un on the Carmanians in the last 100
years
> they also have a good comparison going for them with 13th century Hungary.
> The Osprey book "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe" has some good
info

> on a knightly culture interacting with the nomadic, though they lacked a
> large and well appointed infantry.
>
> Kelly Devries has a nice short book "Infantry Warfare in the Early
> Fourtheenth Century" that has some great info on the Swiss and the Catalan

> Grand Company and how they defeated shock cavalry.
>
> I've an ongoing document on the Carmanian military which may see light of
day
> when I've finished working through their military evolution but it is a
low
> burn project when compared to the other things I am working on. Time! Oh
> for infinite time!
>
> Martin Laurie
>

I don't intend to criticize Martin's idea about these analogies for I don't have ability to do so and I love his work. But...maybe I have vague misgivings that his Lunar is too Europeanized.... Maybe.... Nick Brooke can help Martin greatly about the topic.

From Martin Laurie's writing about nomads:

<<Well I think that the academic interest in pastoralists has been rising lately. This work has shown the symbiotic relationship between nomads and agrarian societies that was perhaps poorly understood before. As a result it
is quite evident that all nomadic cultures interacted with cities or urban cultures at some point and gained from it. The degree to which they interacted was the basis for the alteration in their society.>>

I hope God bless you next year.

--__--__-- Received on Tue Dec 31 05:37:23 2002

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