Stirrups

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z@mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Wed 01 Jan 2003 - 16:25:51 EET


First, I should say gratitude to you, Nick and Martin. I will put your comments to my memorandum if I will manage to edit them well and you permit me to do so.

"Astrology was from Dara Happa, or Lightbringer Myth was from Theyalan People....some new inventions of Glorantha can be specified with one place as an origin....

Maybe, as I was taught, stirrups are from China (Kralorela?) as letterpress, compass or gunpowder."

From HW mailing list:
Chris Bell:
> About stirrups...
>
> Stirrups may tie in with various Hippogriff/Horse myths that that dot
solar
> cultures, at least amongst the Grazers.
>
> Stirrups were obviously devised by Waha as part of the survival covenant,
> perhaps crafted from leather and sinew, and copied by inferior outlander
> peoples...
>
> And every good Orlanthi knows that Gustbran first devised stirrups at the
> request of Redalda, so that riding could be more comfortable for both
> herself and her husband, Elmal.
>
> ...And so on.
>

Nick:
>Here's the last paragraph from Herodotos' "Histories" (I'm nicking it =
>from
>the Gutenberg etext so it's rather archaic):

<Excerpt from the last paragraph of the chapter: Calliope "the History">

I rather recall the sarcasm of Paul Atreides lastly addressed to his father-in-law Padishah- Emperor in the "Desert Planet of Dune".

I suppose at least I understand what you intend to talk about the difficulty from the POV of geopolitics about the parallel between RW Iran and Carmania.

General Castokum (IIRC) induced stirrups from East, Kralorela? in the Erzanestyu Dynasty.
If Malkioni induced it later and not invented by their own...it might change greatly the older scheme of Gloranthan Malkioni Knights.

Both comments of Nick's and Martin's are interesting, (and I took notice that Nick used Achaimenesians (from POV of Greeks) while Martin mainly used Sassanians (from POV of Byzantines like Procopius.)

Martin's explanation about his analogue:

<<> Best period would be around 1150 Crusader states tactics mixed with a dollop
> of 14th & 15th century Burgundy under Charles the Bold (esp his campaigns
> against the Swiss), however due to the odd blend of stirrup wearing shock
> cavalry mixed with actual hoplites, it is a bit difficult to put the
> Carmanians into a direct RW analogy. The Carmanians also field
Janissaries
> and city communal regiments of halberdeers and pikemen.
>
>>

>"was nothing more than a crowd of pitiable peasants" (Procopius)
That is exactly the same that you wrote in the article of Arim's Army from POV of lunars in Enclosure #1,
Sorry, but I don't know how well Byzantines keep their objectivism to their History.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/justinian/3.html

>The Sassanians had no such parallel, their infantry was, as Procopius
points out,
>"was nothing more than a crowd of pitiable peasants" and at Dara they were
>slaughtered, throwing down their shields once the Clibinari were defeated.

From my small Bookshelf about Ancient Warfare:
>Clibinari is more heavy armored cavalry regiments than Cataphracti in
Sassanian Army.
>(On the contrary, in Byzantine Army, Cataphracti is more armored than
Clibinari.)

In RW, neither of Achaimenes and Sassanians didn't know stirrups...... So, though I don't know where and when about the battlefield of Dara. Only minor elite forces can wield long spear on their horsebacks. (It needs great technic without stirrups.)

http://www.bartleby.com/67/275.html
<<603?606

The assassination of Maurice and his sons by Phocas (602) gave Khusrau the opportunity to declare war against Constantinople. After defeating the forces of Phocas, Khusrau's armies invaded Armenia and Syria and ravaged Cappadocia; many cities were captured, including Dara (603), Amida, and Resaina (606). In 604 a Sassanian army had been defeated by the Arabs at the Battle of Dhu Qar. >>

Martin:
>On the other hand, the Persians were a nomadic people who rose to
prominence
>after the defeat of the Parthians, also a nomadic people who rose to
dominate
>the post Seleucid Iranian region.

Hmm, I imaged Carmanos and his successors with Achaimenes Dynasty.

Please see my brief personal note:
http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~BLUEMAGI/CarmanianHistoryNote-e.htm

>If Modern LE is Sassanians...

>Akhaimenes: Lion Shahs
>Successors: Bull Shahs
>Parthians: Vakthan Ilart and TakenEgi
>Sassanians: Arronius and Magnificus

>Just a vague thought.

My interview with Greg in Oakland:
<<What does the ancient country hold the closest similarity to LE? Persia? Roman Empire? Byzantine? Or Sumerian?

He said, "Persia". and shifted to "Sassanoid Persia". I said Dara Happa has great similarity to Ancient China. He reluctantly denied and he said he doesn' t know well about the ancient china. I cannot believe this portion of his address.>>

From Greg's comment about Modern Lunar Army: <<
You mentioned that LE is much similar to Sassanoid Empire, but refering to Unspoken Word #1,Tarsh Culture is much similar to Roman culture. Can I analyze that Sairdite Culture is similar to Romans, and so whole system of LE Political Structure and Culture is Persian-like Style? (That is the
speculation of recent answer to him..)

GS:
I can not control how other people see the Empire and choose toportray it in their own publications. The Roman Empire certainly has many characteristics that are smiliar to the Lunar Empire. However, ffrom MY perspective the Middle East is MUCH more appropriate. For starters, the Lunars do not have the methodology of standardization that seems so pervasive of the Romans. Certainly the empire has organization, but it is a hodge podge of collected parts, not a nice top-down political arrangement.

Note to other army: the LE has no such unity as the Romans had, they do not use the legion either.

>>

http://pchome.grm.hia.no/~fsaljoug/SassMil.htm <<Despite its roots in feudal Parthia, and occasional relapses, the Sassanian military showed an increasing degree of sophistication over the years. From a traveling inspector of cavalry quality, to the elaborate system of unit insignia, their armed forces approached but rarely exceeded the overall "gravitas" of the contemporary Romans. Doubtless they were more organized and professional than any of their other opponents, formidable as those were, in Arabia, the Caucasus, Bactria, India, and the steppes. The battle against feudalism took a major boost with the accession of Khusro I, lapsed somewhat under his successors, and picked up too late under the ill-starred Yazdagird III.

3.0 - Cavalry

The most famous component of the Sassanian military is the mounted arm. The first record of cavalry is literally engraved in stone in a sequence of monumental rock carvings starting from the beginning of the dynasty. Early sculptures of the shahanshahs show armored lancers riding galloping leatheror  cloth-armored horses using a two-handed thrust to impale similarly armed opponents. These are likely the successors of the Parthian cataphracts. >>

Martin:
>the opposite of the Carmanians who have their own
>Janissaries

Do you use the term "Janissary" as an elite force or so on?

>Sassanians also had swarms of nomad style horse archers which the
Carmanians
>clearly did not.

I remember Crassus' death in the hand of Parthians (Plutarch) by the attacks of light cavalries. IIRC.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/crassus.html

Maybe Surandar Warleader induced stirrups to his Western Cavalry....or Malkioni invented it independently?
Pelandans also have a legacy of horsemanship from the ancient Lenshi and Lendarshi.....

At least, I can say Carmanians has changed greatly throughout their history...from Carmanos and glorious Imperial Days, Blood Kings assassins and to modern Lunar Army and Dart War champions.....

--__--__-- Received on Fri Jan 3 05:19:54 2003

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