Carmanos

Kevin McDonald:

>I have to assume
>that Syranthir was the primary teacher of Fronelan thought to Carmanos.

Actually Estrekor, a magician that came westward with Syranthir. If by Fronelan thought, you meant sorcerous concepts in general then the Pelandans have knowledge of that since the Storm Age.

>So what were those Lake Oronin Blues like?

The Entekosiad (p51) has the DediOronin - said to be humans imitating their conquerors with blue paint and evil ways but that's only the surfacers rather than the people within that you were asking about. Oronin himself is said to be royal (Entekosiad p53) when YarGan takes his crown from him.

So it seems that there's two types of blue people there - the Oroninae, the conquerers of fire mountain and the YarGanites - the servants of the evil god.

>Were they South Oredanarans - former Wendarians
>who married with the Blues of the Sweet Sea?

The descendents of the south Oredanarans are the people of Bindle

>Are they Waertagi that came west to destroy Ladral?

Ladaral is further west beneath the Neliomi Sea.

>In essence, I am wondering how much of the
>West was present in Castle Blue. For that matter, how did Carmanos come
>to investigate Idovanus there?

Syranthir investigated Castle Blue because of the legends of the Blue King I'd thought. Since Yargan's crown is the immortal crown of Oronin (said in Elder Secrets to be Adamant), a quest for kingship over the surrounding lands rather than a prophetic retreat is indicated.

>The immortals of Castle Blue don't seem to have much connection with the
>High Gods, at least on the surface. Its a mystery.

The High Gods are Pelandan rather than Carmanian. Although there are many linkages between the two mythologies, there is much that separates them.

>So, anyway... I believe that Carmanos had as much (or more) in common
>with Pelanda as he did with Fronela. Carmanos might have gone questing
>as a young adult to bridge the seemingly insurmountable gap between his
>father's beliefs and the beliefs of his divine mother.

The gap only exists in the God Learner scheme of things, which the Ten Thousand rejected. Whatever the precise beliefs of the Ten Thousand, I don't think they were all that troubled about the division between Gods and God. Moreover they were now resident in a land in which already had a Creator and Sorcerers, as well as an explanation for both alongside gods and spirits.

I would stress instead the role of the Lie. As one of the Ten Thousand, Carmanos would be affected by the need to oppose the Lie, rather than God Learner speculation about reconciling Gods and Sorcery. The motif is a popular one giving that the Ten Thousand are still sore about the beating they took from the God Learners and they like the Pelandans are fighting off the Spolites. What they lack is a moral compass that gives them a sense of certainty.

>In his searching,
>the answer he found was the Pelandan god Idovanus, one of the High Gods.

I would delete mention of the High Gods here as there is a conflict between Idovanus as one of the High Gods and Idovanus as the Creator. Secondly Idovanus was already known as the Creator in Pelanda as far back as the Storm Age.

Secondly the identification between Irensavel and Idovanus is something that most of the Ten Thousand could have worked out by themselves, and if they couldn't then there were Logicians on hand to drop unsubtle hints. I think it more likely that everybody knew that Idovanus had the answer but that GanEstoro prevented people from speaking to him.

>He completed hideously dangerous quests involving both the Sorcerery and
>God planes, and reached the ultimate Truth behind each faith - the
>Carmanian Religion was born.

This is getting a bit artificial (not to mention that questing is done on the Heroplanes). Carmanos sounds to me more like an inspired prophet rather than a religious syncretizer.

I would stress Carmanos's need to speak to Idovanus. And to do that, he must overcome GanEstoro or a wordly representative. Since YarGan wears Oronin's adamant crown, Carmanos in defeating him, not only gets to speak to Idovanus but ends up wearing becoming the magical ruler of ancient Wendaria/Pelanda.

>The Ten Thousand
>were a mixed bag of western Malkioni and assorted other people who
>joined along the way. Carmanos claimed to be the son of their leader,
>Syranthir.

I'm not so sure? The Carmanians weren't interested in Syranthir until a couple of centuries later when Nadar went on a rampage in Fronela. Secondly the Ten Thousand were an army, not a hereditary fief. If Carmanos was to exert influence over them, then IMO he needed something stronger than "my daddy lead you lot and my mommy's a goddess". Considering Syranthir's personal misfortune (his missus slept with his brother), the Ten Thousand might be very skeptical about rights based on kinship.

>Then he had to convince everyone of the Truth of his
>teachings. I imagine epic debates and magical contests with the Fronelan
>wizards happened, ending with their being convinced. The rest of the Ten
>Thousand would require less convincing - his power would be enough.

It depends on what is to be argued about. The reconciliation between Loskalmi and Pelandan religions had already been carried out over the past ages by the Logicians. The Loskalmi wizards were more concerned about how their sorcery could be used for evil purposes, something which I'm uncertain Carmanos could have decided one way or another.

Hence I think Carmanos was respected because he was ordained by Idovanus as Shah and that he provided a clear, accessible answer to the spiritual angst that plagued the Ten Thousand and possibly some Pelandans.

I don't think his position as Shah carried anything close to the absolute political power that his successors enjoyed. Rather it was more like a Pope, somebody which the powers pay great deference to publicly even if they disagree with you. His successors used their position to accummulate political power to transform the Shahdom into an all-powerful monarchy.

>On the other hand, I think once Bisos was established as a Good God
>in the Carmanian Religion they would have good reason to get on board
>- not just as allies but as converts.

But the good reasons are not compelling for all Bisosae for nine hundred years after the arrival of the Ten Thousand, there are still significant numbers of non-Carmanian Bisosae.

>As for Carmanos wanting or not wanting converts, I just can't imagine a
>religious reformer who would be satisfied with converting just a tiny
>few people (the monotheistic portion of the Ten Thousand).

I can point to the example of Jean Calvin who preached a religion which came close to that. Religions can grow and spread without the zeal to make converts.

>It seems to me that in those early days, when
>Bisos was revealed to be a Good God, his rites were revised certified
>"Lie Free", and bingo! You have a new Carmanian cult - Bisos Carmanos,
>as opposed to plain old polluted Bisos.

But the plain old polluted Bisos still survives. The Pelandan farmers and warriors worship him but believe in the Jernotian Way, not the Carmanian rites.

--Peter Metcalfe

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End of Glorantha Digest Received on Sat Apr 5 06:01:39 2003